Could Improper Strength Training be a Problem for the Flames? - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

TheDebaser · 11-13-2013, 03:19 PM

Inspired by this post from an Oilers board:

http://www.reddit.com/r/EdmontonOile...bout_training/

Aside from maybe Jones, Glencross, Wideman, Gio, Grats and Jackman, the flames are all weak players that can be pushed off the puck with ease. A lot of this is a function of our team being young, but for guys like Backlund, who has the skill, speed, and smarts to make it in the game, being this weak at 24 should be a major red flag for this organizations strength development.

I am a little concerned that none of our players seem to develop strength after coming here. Sure, this season our teams cardio has been great, it has allowed us to steal some games in the third period, but all of our forwards get knocked off the puck easily when they're up against a team like the sharks, the blues, or the hawks.

I'm starting to worry that our organizations top to bottom lack of strength is a result of an improper strength program, rather than just "small players" who don't play "that game."

Remember that absolutely anyone can become an absolute strength monster. Aside from too much strength affecting footspeed, there is no reason that these players couldn't be strong compared to their competition.

Could you imagine if Backlund or Baertschi weren't just not weak, but actually strong? If they had the strength to protect the puck easily or smash into the opposition and take the puck away on a whim?

Instead, we have lanky talented players who are stagnating. Why? Could improper strength training be the reason?

flambers · 11-13-2013, 03:23 PM

Umm.... I would go with No. Its not a problem.

_Q_ · 11-13-2013, 03:26 PM

Jesus Christ

Enoch Root · 11-13-2013, 03:27 PM

nothing to see here

TheDebaser · 11-13-2013, 03:28 PM

So the answer is no. Ok then, that must be why we're so strong.

CaramonLS · 11-13-2013, 03:30 PM

I would expect a bit less of an outright dismissive attitude from some people here.

I don't think it is unfair to ask the question.

Also keep in mind that you now have teams across many professional sports leagues employing people with Masters and PhDs in Kinesiology in strength and conditioning roles - ours has a Bachelors in Phys Ed.

irrevocable · 11-13-2013, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Q_

Jesus Christ

He can't save this team.

codynw · 11-13-2013, 03:34 PM

Calgary4LIfe · 11-13-2013, 03:39 PM

I think the 'problem' is that this team is small. I know Backlund tested as the fittest Flame, so how was his strength benchmarks? I think the OP should start there.

At the end of the day, San Jose comes in and out-muscles the Flames because they are bigger, older and more talented. I would be surprised if strength and conditioning was a factor at all.

Also, cardio would probably play an equal role in how able a player can be 'strong' on the puck. Doesn't matter how big you are, if you are tired you are going to get out-muscled by smaller guys as not only the game wears on, but individual shifts.

There are lots of variables, but if you are bringing Baertschi as part of your concern, I would think it is being concerned about nothing. He is young and on the smaller side - will take him a couple of seasons to get his man-strength up. Backlund - ok, possibly. But before judging him, look up his stats from the fitness testing (I have no idea how he did in the strength portions), but probably would make sense to start there. Some players just take more time.

Also, balance is an integral part of how 'strong' you can seem out on that ice. How strong of a skater you are - not just in speed, but in edgework and balance. Probably a lot more to analyze here, and I don't think this is a terrible thread to discuss.

Buck Murdock · 11-13-2013, 03:43 PM

Their muscles are too small. Someone tell Hartley.

MissTeeks · 11-13-2013, 03:43 PM

Rich Hesketh has been with the team since 1995. I think if his fitness programs were no good, they would have fired him by now.

JobHopper · 11-13-2013, 03:43 PM

It's probably a valid point/concern.

The Flames do have Martin Gelinas as an assistant coach and he was also a very fit player. Jarome Iginla as well when he was here.

You would think guys like that would have an influence on the rest of the team and younger players as well as overall team policy regarding off ice training and fitness.

btimbit · 11-13-2013, 03:47 PM

I'd agree that way too many Flames get pushed off the puck way too easily. Not everyone needs to be McGrattan size, but we can't hold our own when the going gets rough.

Look at the St. Louis game, we were just getting bowled over and couldn't get near the net for most of the game

Itse · 11-13-2013, 03:51 PM

I think it's a fair question.

Let's see. Guys that have been here for a while that have also been on other teams:
Stajan, Stempniak, Hudler, Wideman, Jackman, McGrattan, Butler, Cammalleri...

They all look pretty much the same in strength as they've been before. Not weaker, not stronger.

Glencross, Giordano, Backlund, Brodie...

Giordano and Glencross are doing fine against the opposition. Brodie is generally speaking doing great compared to his size. Backlund is not exactly getting thrown around, but yeah, maybe he should try bulking up, now that he's projecting to be a 3rd/4th line center.

Should they maybe try to get some players to bulk up more? Sure, could work. Is it a problem? No, I don't see it.

I think it's clear that our team focuses more on speed and stamina than some others, but those are good qualities, and one of the reasons we can play a fun style of game that brings some results instead of trying to grind it out.

Each team should try to play to it's strengths. It's easier to outwork teams if you've got still got a lot of speed left in the 3rd.

Passe La Puck · 11-13-2013, 03:52 PM

Your argument seems to be that size doesn't matter because a small guy can still be stronger than a big guy. The problem is at the elite level everyone's near their peak, so size very much matters.

CaramonLS · 11-13-2013, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissTeeks

Rich Hesketh has been with the team since 1995. I think if his fitness programs were no good, they would have fired him by now.

I don't think it is that simple. Nor is that logical reasoning.

Heck we had Jarome Iginla as the "fittest" Flame year in and year out, yet he completely flopped most seasons out of the gate, especially at a time when a conditioning advantage should grant you an edge against your opponent.

Fitness and the science of the human body is evolving significantly. Does someone with a Bachelors in Phys Ed who happens to be a gym rat really have all the skills to be designing nutriution plans for these guys, ensuring that they are at peak performance, etc.

Heck, there are a few examples of prospects in our organization who flopped due to conditioning (Howse and very nearly Ferland).

The fact that our player development over the last 20 years has been one of the worst in the NHL should only increase the focus we should have on this stuff.

I am not trying to blame Hesketh, but other organizations have really started investing in the science of performance and conditioning.

TheDebaser · 11-13-2013, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itse

I think it's a fair question.

Let's see. Guys that have been here for a while that have also been on other teams:
Stajan, Stempniak, Hudler, Wideman, Jackman, McGrattan, Butler, Cammalleri...

They all look pretty much the same in strength as they've been before. Not weaker, not stronger.

Glencross, Giordano, Backlund, Brodie...

Giordano and Glencross are doing fine against the opposition. Brodie is generally speaking doing great compared to his size. Backlund is not exactly getting thrown around, but yeah, maybe he should try bulking up, now that he's projecting to be a 3rd/4th line center.

Should they maybe try to get some players to bulk up more? Sure, could work. Is it a problem? No, I don't see it.

I think it's clear that our team focuses more on speed and stamina than some others, but those are good qualities, and one of the reasons we can play a fun style of game that brings some results instead of trying to grind it out.

Each team should try to play to it's strengths. It's easier to outwork teams if you've got still got a lot of speed left in the 3rd.

Very good points here. Thanks for the actual response.

I just think that it's a bit of a red flag that aside from our captain, our draft picks and Curtis Glencross, not a single player has really improved his strength over years of playing here.

Although admittedly, maybe that's by design. Maybe all of our guys are at the perfect weight for them to be playing and they are focused on maintaining their strength.

But you can tell just by watching that good teams, teams like the Blues, the Sharks, the Bruins, the Ducks, the Kings, the Red Wings are all doing something differently then us. It's not just this year either, it seems like the flames haven't been able to dominate a game physically for quite a while.

bzoo02 · 11-13-2013, 04:15 PM

The problem with strength is our team is tooo young....everyone knows old man strangth doesn't kick in until about 28-30.
That is perfect timing for when we make our cup run.

Opening a jar of pickles at 23 - struggle
Opening a jar of pickles at 28 - piece of cake

Buff · 11-13-2013, 04:15 PM

I think the OP's observations are more likely due to the the players on the team and what they are capable of physically and mentally. You can be the strongest guy on the ice but if you prefer to avoid contact then you're going to be out muscled. A better example would be big bodies who actually seek the physical play, are they being out muscled? If so, then there should be a big concern.

I'd also like to add that Burke is not that patient. If he got the inkling that his players weren't being properly trained then he'd make sure changes were made.

Goodlad · 11-13-2013, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I don't think it is that simple. Nor is that logical reasoning.

Heck we had Jarome Iginla as the "fittest" Flame year in and year out, yet he completely flopped most seasons out of the gate, especially at a time when a conditioning advantage should grant you an edge against your opponent.

Fitness and the science of the human body is evolving significantly. Does someone with a Bachelors in Phys Ed who happens to be a gym rat really have all the skills to be designing nutriution plans for these guys, ensuring that they are at peak performance, etc.

Heck, there are a few examples of prospects in our organization who flopped due to conditioning (Howse and very nearly Ferland).

The fact that our player development over the last 20 years has been one of the worst in the NHL should only increase the focus we should have on this stuff.

I am not trying to blame Hesketh, but other organizations have really started investing in the science of performance and conditioning.

Gary Roberts doesn't even have that much, yet he's regarded as one of the best around when it comes to hockey-related fitness. I don't know that his education level is entirely relevant in that particular field.

Whether he is getting good results or not should be the only standard he's held to.