Rob Ford Transgressions Thread

[fundmark19]

Originally Posted by Daradon

It proves he's compromised. Which has been brought up before. There are criminals with sway over him, and whether or not he allowed it or is involved with it, it was poor decision making and illegal activity that gave them that power. He's compromised AND it's his fault. He HAS to go.

It doesn't prove he is compromised at all. It proves that a bunch of criminals wanted to buy a video of the mayor smoking crack. I don't believe you can prove any intent after that. They could be covering their tracks they could be looking to compromise the mayor in the future they could be using it to get the mayor kicked out so that they can have a mayor elected that they could compromise.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

It doesn't prove he is compromised at all. It proves that a bunch of criminals wanted to buy a video of the mayor smoking crack. I don't believe you can prove any intent after that. They could be covering their tracks they could be looking to compromise the mayor in the future they could be using it to get the mayor kicked out so that they can have a mayor elected that they could compromise.

I really don't think they were going to buy it and stick it in a drawer. They clearly would try and get something out of the video. Assuming they had to pay the price that was initially being asked ($200,000), they were going to do what any business person does in that situation: Get return on their investment. Once they have the tape they can basically hold it over Ford, which makes him exposed to doing whatever they want in order to prevent the tape from coming out. Lest we forget this whole story is only alive again because its now proven the tape exists. If Ford could have found a foolproof, 100% way to destroy it he would have. His character tells you that.

[fundmark19]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I really don't think they were going to buy it and stick it in a drawer. They clearly would try and get something out of the video. Assuming they had to pay the price that was initially being asked ($200,000), they were going to do what any business person does in that situation: Get return on their investment. Once they have the tape they can basically hold it over Ford, which makes him exposed to doing whatever they want in order to prevent the tape from coming out. Lest we forget this whole story is only alive again because its now proven the tape exists. If Ford could have found a foolproof, 100% way to destroy it he would have. His character tells you that.

Of course they would use it. All I am saying is there is no way to prove what they were going to use it for. They could have leaked it to media to try and get him ousted and have a new mayor come in that they have on their payroll.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Yeah I seriously doubt organized crime folk give two ####s who the mayor is. If they spent $200,000 its because they think they can make $500,000 or $1,000,000. Its only going to be about the money with organized crime.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

It doesn't prove he is compromised at all. It proves that a bunch of criminals wanted to buy a video of the mayor smoking crack. I don't believe you can prove any intent after that. They could be covering their tracks they could be looking to compromise the mayor in the future they could be using it to get the mayor kicked out so that they can have a mayor elected that they could compromise.

You're reaching. A group of criminals (unless they have crazy connections and huge old school mob support, which they dont in this case) is not going to be able to influence a future election. That's not in their thinking and is a ridiculous statement.

No, they wanted the tape to gain or increase control over Ford. (Or possibly a quick cash grab, though that didn't work previously so I don't believe it's the reason here.) Whether or not there is real control yet, he is already compromised. At the very least, everyone who works with him will be wondering and analysing his decisions in the future. It may have already discouraged business. That is compromised. And I'm sure it's already more than that.

You've got the blinders on if you can't admit that.

[chemgear]

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/

On the Fifth Estate tonight.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Daradon

You're reaching. A group of criminals (unless they have crazy connections and huge old school mob support, which they dont in this case) is not going to be able to influence a future election. That's not in their thinking and is a ridiculous statement.

No, they wanted the tape to gain or increase control over Ford. (Or possibly a quick cash grab, though that didn't work previously so I don't believe it's the reason here.) Whether or not there is real control yet, he is already compromised. At the very least, everyone who works with him will be wondering and analysing his decisions in the future. It may have already discouraged business. That is compromised. And I'm sure it's already more than that.

You've got the blinders on if you can't admit that.

So if a politician cheets on his/her spouse they should also resign because organized crime could have pictures of it and use it to blackmail them. I think that really boarders on wanting politicians not to be real people. It is getting into their private lives which should remain private.

For example Andre Bosclaire of the PQ adimitted to using Coke while being a seated member of the legislature. Should he have resigned and been out of politics.

I think the standard should be that activities outside the official duties of the mayor should not be held against him. If he could be a functioning crack addict alcoholic and perform his job then by all means let him.

The problem is from the evidence of him being drunk at official functions, coming in late, not scheduling meetings, etc .. his outside activities are affecting his job therefore he should resign.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Yeah I seriously doubt organized crime folk give two ####s who the mayor is. If they spent $200,000 its because they think they can make $500,000 or $1,000,000. Its only going to be about the money with organized crime.

Are you serious? Have you heard about the organized crime probes that have been happening with Montreal mayors?

Ever wondered how some of those city services / construction contracts get distributed?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Are you serious? Have you heard about the organized crime probes that have been happening with Montreal mayors?

Ever wondered how some of those city services / construction contracts get distributed?

Montreal has the single largest organized crime presence in Canada so its not even close to the same. It also has an extensive history of political corruption that no other city in Canada comes even close to. Not an apples to apples comparison.

In fact Toronto is very comparable to Calgary in that regard. Sure there's some organized crime, but not a lot and nothing on the level of Montreal. Montreal and Vancouver are the organized crime headquarters of Canada.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by GGG

So if a politician cheets on his/her spouse they should also resign because organized crime could have pictures of it and use it to blackmail them. I think that really boarders on wanting politicians not to be real people. It is getting into their private lives which should remain private.

For example Andre Bosclaire of the PQ adimitted to using Coke while being a seated member of the legislature. Should he have resigned and been out of politics.

I think the standard should be that activities outside the official duties of the mayor should not be held against him. If he could be a functioning crack addict alcoholic and perform his job then by all means let him.

The problem is from the evidence of him being drunk at official functions, coming in late, not scheduling meetings, etc .. his outside activities are affecting his job therefore he should resign.

Different for a few reasons, the biggest being cheating is not illegal. Moreover to that point and probably because of it politicians, often don't really seem to freak out too much about that.

But even the parallel doesn't help your cause, because if a politician is compromised it's well within part of the electorates right to know, and probably should be used to turf them. They need to make hard decisions for the best of everyone. Being beholden to anyone, especially criminals, prevents that.

[V]

Ui think the best part of this Ford business is that you can think up the most ridiculous Soprano storyline, and it's really not that hard to validate it with Ford. I love it.

[worth]

Who's getting Rob Ford style rowdy this weekend??

[SebC]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

It is very difficult to make cuts and privatize services. If it was easy we would never have defiecit budgets.

In the short term, it's easy to run a surplus. Defer your liabilities and reduce your responsibilities. It's not a recipe for long-term success.

Privitization and cuts don't automatically create surpluses. People expect their taxes to go down when you cut services, and privitization can easily cause costs to go up because once privitized, you add profit for the private company to the costs of providing the service.

[BloodFetish]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Montreal has the single largest organized crime presence in Canada so its not even close to the same. It also has an extensive history of political corruption that no other city in Canada comes even close to. Not an apples to apples comparison.

In fact Toronto is very comparable to Calgary in that regard. Sure there's some organized crime, but not a lot and nothing on the level of Montreal. Montreal and Vancouver are the organized crime headquarters of Canada.

Are you saying there's not much cause for concern in Toronto just because Montreal's organized crime is far worse?

Montreal and Vancouver's problems started somewhere, too. Anything that gives opportunity for organized crime to gain presence in a city is a very real cause for concern, regardless of how your city compares to others.

All my opinion, of course, but angling for a one-time payoff for a blackmail tape seems small-time to me. Organized crime would probably be looking at a much larger picture, such as using leverage on Ford to secure a very lucrative contract with the city for garbage removal or some such thing.

[Vulcan]

I wouldn't be surprised to hear Ford is already involved in organized crime to some extent and they tried to get the video as a favour to Ford.

[Flames89]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I wouldn't be surprised to hear Ford is already involved in organized crime to some extent and they tried to get the video as a favour to Ford.

This is what I believe as well

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Different for a few reasons, the biggest being cheating is not illegal. Moreover to that point and probably because of it politicians, often don't really seem to freak out too much about that.

But even the parallel doesn't help your cause, because if a politician is compromised it's well within part of the electorates right to know, and probably should be used to turf them. They need to make hard decisions for the best of everyone. Being beholden to anyone, especially criminals, prevents that.

The electorate has the right to turf him at the next available election if they feel they have been comprimised but you cant say a person might have been comprimised therefore they have to resign. Its too speculative, you also dont address the Bosclaire situation. He was actually elected leader of the PQ after admitting his cocaine use while being a sitting member of the legislature.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by GGG

The electorate has the right to turf him at the next available election if they feel they have been comprimised but you cant say a person might have been comprimised therefore they have to resign. Its too speculative, you also dont address the Bosclaire situation. He was actually elected leader of the PQ after admitting his cocaine use while being a sitting member of the legislature.

One I don't need to address it, one doesn't justify the other. False equivalency.

Two, situations are different. Admitting past fault is very different than being influenced at the time. Many examples of that on both sides, you're just picking the ones you want.

Three, it's Quebec, anything goes.

You're the one not being consistent. What else you got?

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Montreal has the single largest organized crime presence in Canada so its not even close to the same. It also has an extensive history of political corruption that no other city in Canada comes even close to. Not an apples to apples comparison.

In fact Toronto is very comparable to Calgary in that regard. Sure there's some organized crime, but not a lot and nothing on the level of Montreal. Montreal and Vancouver are the organized crime headquarters of Canada.

We've been on pretty much the same page since the crack scandal happened, so I'm saying this sincerely, as I know the written word can seem sarcastic or preachy.

You are right, far more government is corrupt in Quebec. A lot more organized crime. Don't disagree.

However, it's a bit of a false equivalency to suggest just because Toronto has a 'good' track record, it isn't happening this time. It could, and not only that, the facts and logical ideas, kinda lead that there is something to it here.

Rumours were out long ago the Ford family either dealt with organized crime, or were at least buddies with them. Those fears weren't justified then. However because of these actions, they weigh more seriously now.

Lest anyone think I have a partisan axe to grind, I will remind people I actually came out for Ford when this thread was about the $3000 + dollar conflict of interest story. I said I didn't like it, and there may be some unfair moves against Ford, but that it was a small deal, and was hard to tell if there was any planned. It was just a screw up. And the liberals in the media were trying were being a little too critical. Go ahead, look it up. It's in this thread. I said point blank Ford should keep his job.

But since this crack scandal came out, I've been right on all guesses. Supporters then were saying, 'oh it's just liberal media trying to throw him out and it isn't true'. Yeah, there's some partisan politics at play for sure. But the media are professionals. They check their sources. And guess what, they were right.

There was (and is) just too much smoke there for there not to be fire. I said that then, and it echos even truer now. Singly, it doesn't amount to much. But with all that we know and all that has happened, it's far more than just circumstantial. It's pretty freaking damning.

Are people ganging up? Are shady people trying to make a quick buck? Are there bad people in this story? Of course. But it doesn't change the facts.

The facts are Rob has been lying it for a long time. The facts are he's been spotted bro hugging known criminals. Not just buying from them, partying with them. The facts are, he's been acting more and more erratically. The facts are he actively tried to suppress the tape through his network.

Far FAR too much smoke for there to be no fire.

Can anyone who's heads still isn't up their pooper deny this? It gets worse day by day. Literally, day by day. And everything he denies, or his supporters deny, have been admitted to later. But the supporters just keep pushing the bar. Blind or stubborn.

He's compromised. And, like all the revelations that people wanted to ignore before, it seems to go a lot deeper than that and it's unraveling day by day now. What was denied last week, has been admitted to this week, and so on.

You really wanna be on the wrong side of this?

(not to the quoted poster, but to the few Ford nation guys left)

EDIT: BTW some people still aren't getting how I'm defining compromised which is really closer to the real definition than these denial arguments. Even if he isn't involved, even if there is no larger crime committed than crack smoking, he's already compromised. Who wants to deal with him now, besides said criminals. Who wants to get involved with him? How many people are trying to influence him? And lastly, how much is it affecting city hall?

Even without further sin (of which it seems to be coming out anyway) you cannot argue he isn't compromised.

[JonDuke]

I dunno if this will ever get old for me