We better be on the phones with Anaheim...

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by getbak

The only thing Anaheim might consider would be Gillies+ for Gibson, but I'd have to question why the Flames would make that move.

Gibson is only 6 months older than Gillies, so although he's technically a year ahead of him, their development going forward will likely be very similar.

Yup.

Their progressions have been very similar (with Gillies following in Gibson's footsteps) and there is no question that Gibson is 'ahead' and we would have to add.

But no way would I do that.

I think Gillies will be the better goalie due to his size an athleticism.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

I think the Flames rebuild started in 2009 when the team committed to improving its scouting, that paid off in the subsequent drafts and has helped the Flames build some pretty good depth, like the Hawks did before getting Toews and Kane.

Improved scouting and development is not rebuilding. If the Canucks revamped their scouting next off-season, but kept the Sedins, Kesler, Edler, etc, would they be rebuilding? Of course not.

The conventional definition of a rebuild in professional sports is exchanging current assets for future assets, and relying on drafting to rebuild the roster. It involves making moves that are likely to result in worse records in the short-term, in order to stockpile appreciating assets and improve in the long-term.

Originally Posted by New Era

I think we'll be looking back at the 2010 draft as the that started the turn around. That was the year they drafted Reinhard, Ramage, Arnold and Ferland. They follow that up in 2011 with Baertschi, Granlund, Wotherspoon, Gaudreau and Broissoit. 2012 brought Jankowski, Sieloff and Gillies. Last year we added Monahan, Poirier, and Klimchuk. This is likely the core of the future team.

That is the core of a crappy team. Half of those prospects will end up as busts. Several others will stick in the NHL as average, depth players. A couple might develop into elite players. But it take a lot more than a couple elite players to build a team that battles for the top of the conference and the Cup (just ask the Wild, Hurricanes, or Predators). It takes 4-5 Monahan quality young players.

The Flames need a couple more drafts like last year's - and in particular we need a couple stud defencemen - before we're likely to have an elite stable of prospects and young players.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Kolbe31

I just don't understand the "rebuild" attitude. We have a good team that works hard and can win, in my opinion, a lot of games if we get some decent goaltending. Why dismiss the opportunity to get a better goalie for the sake of a "rebuild"? We are good now, let's go.

No, we really don't.

Our defense is terrible. Our centre depth is atrocious (having a glut of 3rd line centres and one potential 1st line centre in the first year of his career is not good depth).

We work hard, but we do not have players ANYWHERE near capable of beating the Blackhawks/Sharks/Penguins/Bruins etc. in a playoff series.

A good work ethic is important. It needs to be maintained while we continue to build a strong team through the draft - but that takes time, and it takes top 10 picks.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Improved scouting and development is not rebuilding.

I think your view is very myopic. If a team recognizes that it has to change its approach to management and talent acquisition it is first going to change the philosophy and then bring in the appropriate personnel to support such a change. That would be considered the first step towards making change. If the Flames did not make these changes, bringing in better scouts and management with an eye for talent, they would have maintained the status quo and affected no change, regardless of the number of players they traded away or attempted to acquire through trade.

The conventional definition of a rebuild in professional sports is exchanging current assets for future assets, and relying on drafting to rebuild the roster. It involves making moves that are likely to result in worse records in the short-term, in order to stockpile appreciating assets and improve in the long-term.

No, that's your narrow perspective on rebuilding. Teams that have experienced success at rebuilding have first made changes in management and philosophy, bringing in the right people who have vision. The Oilers have been in a perpetual rebuild because they have the same management and the same philosophy. This is why they suck. The Flames made a commitment to bring in people with a specific outlook and skills set to compliment those already in house. This allowed them to properly assess talent and find gems in the draft and through trade, or as you put it, exchanging current assets for futures. But the reality is that this exchange of assets is always on-going, and only appropriate management of those assets is going to lead to success. Improved talent acquisition and development is the first major step to a rebuild, not trading and drafting players. Again, the Oilers are proof of that.

That is the core of a crappy team. Half of those prospects will end up as busts. Several others will stick in the NHL as average, depth players. A couple might develop into elite players. But it take a lot more than a couple elite players to build a team that battles for the top of the conference and the Cup (just ask the Wild, Hurricanes, or Predators). It takes 4-5 Monahan quality young players.

How do you know how any of these players will progress? You don't. You're making a negative assumption with nothing to base it on other than you're a Flames fan and can say we have drafted poorly for years so we'll continue to draft poorly. Did you project Brodie to be a top player when he was drafted? I guarantee not. You were probably dumping all over him and calling him a bust the minute he was drafted. Low and behold he developed into a top four defender and is looking more like a possible number two. You have no idea what we have at the moment. The Blackhawks drafted poorly for years but turned it around with a philosophical change and they struck pay dirt in a series of three straight drafts. I believe the changes we made in scouting may have done that for the Flames and we just have to wait for the unknowns to sort themselves out. Now, what we are certain of is that we have multiple prospects that have excelled at their respective levels of play and have shown great growth. What they develop into will be determined in the next couple of years, but they shown a lot of positive things that would lead one to believe things are turning around and our depth is building nicely.

The Flames need a couple more drafts like last year's - and in particular we need a couple stud defencemen - before we're likely to have an elite stable of prospects and young players.

Yes, we do. But a team is made up of around 30 players of different skills and capabilities. Two or three drafts doesn't do that. That is why the rebuild began in earnest when the Flames made that philosophical change and brought in better scouting and development staff. Without them we are still drafting Greg Nemisz and not taking chances on players like Gaudreau and Jankowski.

[moon]

What evidence is there that we have a better drafting and development staff in place other than people like the prospects we have now just like many teams fan like their prospects?

[Dion]

Trading for a goaltender would send the wrong message to our prospects and short circut the rebuilding process. I get that our goaltending has not been up to snuff but at the same time we need to give the prospects we have a fair change to show the fans and the coaches what they can do for us.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by moon

What evidence is there that we have a better drafting and development staff in place other than people like the prospects we have now just like many teams fan like their prospects?

The prospects have ended up performing better and growing at each level they have played at. When was the last time we could say we had a player as impressive as Gaudreau in the system? How about Baertschi? How about Poirier? Klimchuk? Arnold, Agostino, and Gillies? How about Witherspoon, Ramage and Sieloff? This isn't Flames fans and blind devotion to the team. This is outside interests picking out these players and acknowledging their growth and quality as players. I know it is a very bitter pill for naysayers like yourself, but the team is building a very good group of young players that people from all around the game of hockey appreciate and respect.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by moon

What evidence is there that we have a better drafting and development staff in place other than people like the prospects we have now just like many teams fan like their prospects?

Non-fans seem to rank our prospects higher than before.

[moon]

Originally Posted by New Era

The prospects have ended up performing better and growing at each level they have played at. When was the last time we could say we had a player as impressive as Gaudreau in the system? How about Baertschi? How about Poirier? Klimchuk? Arnold, Agostino, and Gillies?

Phaneuf, Irving, Boyd, Nemiesz, Backlund were all accomplished junior players with big numbers, accolades and WJHC appearances. Phaneuf was a better prospect than any of those mentioned above. Aulie and Wahl are on par with the Arnold, Agostino's we have now. Throw in guys that made it in Brodie and Prust and it doesn't seem like we are swimming in a ton more guys than we were during Sutter's time.

Plenty of those guys grew and improved at every level they played as well.

How about Witherspoon, Ramage and Sieloff? This isn't Flames fans and blind devotion to the team. This is outside interests picking out these players and acknowledging their growth and quality as players. I know it is a very bitter pill for naysayers like yourself, but the team is building a very good group of young players that people from all around the game of hockey appreciate and respect.

[/QUOTE]

There is nothing bitter to swallow since I want the best for the team but a little early to be praising the great strides in scouting and drafting when about 2 guys (Monahan and Baertschi) have shown anything at the NHL level.

[PeteMoss]

There is zero difference between Fasth at this point last year and Ramo/Berra right now. Might as well see if one can turn into something before giving up assets for a goalie.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by moon

Phaneuf, Irving, Boyd, Nemiesz, Backlund were all accomplished junior players with big numbers, accolades and WJHC appearances. Phaneuf was a better prospect than any of those mentioned above. Aulie and Wahl are on par with the Arnold, Agostino's we have now. Throw in guys that made it in Brodie and Prust and it doesn't seem like we are swimming in a ton more guys than we were during Sutter's time.

Plenty of those guys grew and improved at every level they played as well.

There is nothing bitter to swallow since I want the best for the team but a little early to be praising the great strides in scouting and drafting when about 2 guys (Monahan and Baertschi) have shown anything at the NHL level.[/QUOTE]

None of this is false - and in fact a lot of it is true. Until these players make the show - it is just hope.

But there's nothing wrong with a little bit of hope from time to time

That fact that you seek out every post with a hint of posts like the ones you responded to in this thread is why you have the reputation you do.

Some times, actually often times, fans are allowed to be fans.

And that doesn't mean every time they are - that someone should feel obligated to come along and toss a big bucket of ice water on them.

[icecube]

This is the first time I can ever remember being excited about our prospect stable. I used roll my eyes at defensive Flames fans who would spit out names like Trubachev, Tarathukin, Chucko, (insert dozens of other busts here).

Our fanbase was in denial about our absolutely pathetic drafting and development at the time.

This year is definitely different. You're hearing praise from scouts, media and other fanbases about our prospects instead of laughs. I'm feeling pretty good about this team's future now. I don't care if Moon or whoever wants to rain on my parade. I think the future is bright.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

I think your view is very myopic. If a team recognizes that it has to change its approach to management and talent acquisition it is first going to change the philosophy and then bring in the appropriate personnel to support such a change. That would be considered the first step towards making change.

Sure, it's change. And most teams periodically change their management strategies and systems substantially. But a rebuild is a very specific type of change.

Originally Posted by New Era

How do you know how any of these players will progress?

I don't. None of us do. So all we can rely on is probability. Most prospects of the calibre you cited never stick as NHLers. Most middle-of-the-road NHLers were once highly-regarded prospects. That's just the odds.

Originally Posted by New Era

You're making a negative assumption with nothing to base it on other than you're a Flames fan and can say we have drafted poorly for years so we'll continue to draft poorly.

It's not a negative assumption at all. And it has nothing to do with the Flames track record. I happen to be more optimistic about the Flames scouting and prospecting than I've been in a long time. By saying half those prospects would be busts I was simply making the same assessment I would make of every other team's prospect pool. Take a look at the Duck's prospect pool from eight years ago. Riddled with busts. Same as the Hurricanes, Senators, and every other team in the league.

Originally Posted by New Era

Did you project Brodie to be a top player when he was drafted?

Nope. However, I also wasn't pencilling in Matt Pelech as a guaranteed shut-down defenceman, or Greg Nemisz as a 2nd line power winger, the way a lot of folks here were.

Some prospects develop better than projected. A lot more developed worse than hoped. And again, that goes for every team in the league.

Originally Posted by New Era

You have no idea what we have at the moment.

And you have no idea what Anaheim, Minnesota, Phoenix, LA, St. Louis, and the rest of the teams in our conference have at the moment. Any of their prospects is as likely to exceed their projection when drafted as ours. And we started this rebuild with a worse collection of under 25 talent than almost any other franchise in the league. We're not competing with the Flames franchise of 10-15 years ago; we're competing against the other teams in the NHL today and in the futre.

Originally Posted by New Era

Now, what we are certain of is that we have multiple prospects that have excelled at their respective levels of play and have shown great growth.

Sure. And if you spent some looking into other teams, you'd find the same thing is true of their prospect base. Don't make the mistake of using the Flames drafting and development history - widely acknowledged as perhaps the worse in the league over the last 20 years - as a guideline to how we are doing today. It looks like we have certainly improved, but even dramatic improvement would only bring us into line with with NHL mediocrity.

Originally Posted by New Era

What they develop into will be determined in the next couple of years, but they shown a lot of positive things that would lead one to believe things are turning around and our depth is building nicely.

I agree. But considering where we were starting from, and assuming the goal is to build an elite, cup-challenging core, we have a long, long way to go. Your assertion that we have the core of the rebuild in place already is wildly optimistic.

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

That fact that you seek out every post with a hint of posts like the ones you responded to in this thread is why you have the reputation you do.

Some times, actually often times, fans are allowed to be fans.

And that doesn't mean every time they are - that someone should feel obligated to come along and toss a big bucket of ice water on them.

You're not considering the context of this thread. Some people have argue we need to improve goaltending now. Others believe this is the beginning of a long rebuild, and this isn't the point to trade away assets for goaltending. And then New Era jumped in and asserted that the core of the rebuilt Flames is already in place. So why are the fans who think this will be a long rebuild, and we should relax and be patient, the negative fans, while those who think we've largely accomplished the rebuild the positive fans? Why is optimism about the present a more admirable fan sentiment than patience?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Some times, actually often times, fans are allowed to be fans.

The problem with what moon is saying, and then what you are saying, is that it is not just fans saying these things. Hockey "experts" recognize that the Flames have some excellent prospects, and a vast improvement over the past decade. This is not just fans talking, but actually hockey people taking notice of our players and depth.

Moon can try and dismiss the improved depth all he wants, and try and build some false equivalencies (Boyd, Nemisz, Irving =/= Monahan, Baertschi, Gillies), but the reality is that the Flames have more talent in the system right now than at any time since 1986. Yeah, these kids have to step up and prove they have what it takes to play in the NHL, but the prospects are in a completely different world than what we have come to expect over the past.

Cliff Fletcher needs to go back and take a look at how the Chicago Blackhawks were built. Toews and Kane were drafted at the end of the their rebuild. The core of that team was drafted before either of those players was selected. The depth was already in the system because they drafted well prior to going early in the first round. And no, the majority of that depth was not found in the first round. Depth comes throughout the draft, not just from first round picks.

[Mister Yamoto]

I remember when the Flames were set for life on D because they had their top 4 of the future. Pelech, Negrin, Aulie and Baldwin.

Sure the prospect pool looks great. It always looks great. But I'm not gonna be convinced until they are actually putting players into the NHL. Gaudreau, Seiloff, Jankowski, Gillies etc. sounds good but I'll believe it when I see it.

[icecube]

Our prospect pool was a trillion times worse than this for the last two decades. Arguably the worst in the NHL over the years. This feels like Christmas compared to years past.

[moon]

Originally Posted by New Era

Moon can try and dismiss the improved depth all he wants, and try and build some false equivalencies (Boyd, Nemisz, Irving =/= Monahan, Baertschi, Gillies), but the reality is that the Flames have more talent in the system right now than at any time since 1986. Yeah, these kids have to step up and prove they have what it takes to play in the NHL, but the prospects are in a completely different world than what we have come to expect over the past.

Solid job leaving out Phaneuf and Backlund in that list. I guess when you leave out the top prospects from before this new group of "stud" prospect evaluators and drafters it makes it easier to back your bogus agenda.

[JD]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

I remember when the Flames were set for life on D because they had their top 4 of the future. Pelech, Negrin, Aulie and Baldwin.

I have a really hard time believing anyone actually thought that.

I remember Regehr, Lydman, Gauthier, and Leopold being earmarked as future cornerstones of our defense, but never, ever do I recall hearing anyone say the likes of the guys you mention as a top 4.

There are a lot of wet blankets in this forum. It's tiresome.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by moon

Solid job leaving out Phaneuf and Backlund in that list. I guess when you leave out the top prospects from before this new group of "stud" prospect evaluators and drafters it makes it easier to back your bogus agenda.

I'm not the one with the agenda. You're the one who does nothing but crap all over anything the Flames do, even when the experts say great things about the team, and attempt to further the agenda the Flames are horrible at every turn. You marginalize every one of their players and prospects. That is your agenda and you hate it when you get called out on it.

For example, you had to use six drafts to develop your false equivalency, almost twice as many as I used. That actually proves my point. You had to use six draft years to come up with what you claimed to be an equivalent number of prospects. So lets really compare.

Moon's list: Phaneuf (2003), Irving (2006), Boyd (2004), Nemiesz (2008), Backlund (2007)

New Era's list: Reinhart (2010), Ramage (2010), Arnold (2010), Ferland (2010), Agostino (2010), Baertschi (2011), Granlund (2011), Wotherspoon, (2011), Gaudreau (2011), Brossoit (2011), Jankowski (2012), Sieloff (2012), Gillies (2012)

Add in 2013 with Monahan, Poirior, and Klimchuk.

Yeah, that's pretty well the same thing. Who has an agenda again?

[getbak]

Feaster better hang up that phone.