Smallest crowd of the year? 7401 in Glendale last night

[nik-]

The league is still going to have to funnel money into the market. So they are most definitely on the hook. I won't say Bettman is incompetant, because he's obviously not, but he either has the blinders on regarding that market (unlikely) or refuses to admit that it's a total failure (more likely).

[868904]

Originally Posted by nik-

The league is still going to have to funnel money into the market. So they are most definitely on the hook. I won't say Bettman is incompetant, because he's obviously not, but he either has the blinders on regarding that market (unlikely) or refuses to admit that it's a total failure (more likely).

Yeah Bettman isn't an idiot, he's smarter than the majority of the people on this board. Keeping the Coyotes where they are probably has a greater impact on the NHL than the Coyotes owners.

It likely has something to do with the TV deal and exposure to a national market. Attendance in Phoenix is pretty secondary to the NHL compared to geographic coverage for TV networks.

It must be hard to sell a national TV package in the States when you don't have any teams in the western US. They probably need Phoenix for that purpose.

THe NHL only has 5 teams west of Texas in the US and 3 are in California. They probably can't afford to lose another western team unless it gets moved to another western US market.

[nik-]

I think even the TV deal aspect is totally overrated. They have Southern Cali and San Jose for the West Coast. No one is watching the Coyotes in Phoenix and everyone knows it. I don't think NBC likely cared about growth and presense in that market because they know it's a lost cause too.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by moon

It doesn't really matter if he suckered anyone or not he got the money and the league is not on the hook. That is what matters to owners and that is who Bettman cares about not some grump in BC.

I trust them to make the right decision because they own the teams and see the financial numbers. Their job and Bettmans job isn't to do what is best for the fans but what is best for the owners.

Grump indeed, I know in your drunken fog it may be hard to follow along, but try. The NHL lost $112.7M in operating the Coyotes plus they spent $140M for the franchise plus $10M in court costs. They sold it for $170M, so they are on the hook for $92.7M. The Coyotes have lost money every year they've been in operation. Not only that but the NHL had to loan the new owners $85M. Looking at the recent attendance, I'll be surprised if these new owners can last for 5 years.

Bettman's job should be to do what's best for hockey. I realize he isn't up to that though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix...to_Renaissance

oh yeah, I forgot about the yearly maximum revenue sharing which the Coyotes have been promised.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozan...funded-by-nhl/

[moon]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Grump indeed, I know in your drunken fog it may be hard to follow along, but try. The NHL lost $112.7M in operating the Coyotes plus they spent $140M for the franchise plus $10M in court costs. They sold it for $170M, so they are on the hook for $92.7M. The Coyotes have lost money every year they've been in operation. Not only that but the NHL had to loan the new owners $85M. Looking at the recent attendance, I'll be surprised if these new owners can last for 5 years.

Bettman's job should be to do what's best for hockey. I realize he isn't up to that though.

Drunken fog?

Bettman isn't paid by hockey so why should his job be to do what's best for hockey? He is paid by the owners of the NHL so his job is to do what they think is best. They obviously think he is doing fine so why should he do anything else?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by moon

Drunken fog?

Bettman isn't paid by hockey so why should his job be to do what's best for hockey? He is paid by the owners of the NHL so his job is to do what they think is best. They obviously think he is doing fine so why should he do anything else?

Some people have a love for the game while others just count the money. What makes Bettman incompetent is apparently he can't even count.

[Resolute 14]

Save your breath, moon. You're arguing with a black pot who's blind hatred rules his views. A fool whose hubris clouds his vision.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Save your breath, moon. You're arguing with a black pot who's blind hatred rules his views. A fool whose hubris clouds his vision.

I guess when you don't have an argument, a personal attack will do.

[4oh3]

[TjRhythmic]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It is 40 to 45 minutes from Scottsdale, yes.

But that doesn't put it in the middle of nowhere - it is in Glendale, and between Scottsdale and Glendale there is a small town called Phoenix. Glendale is on the west side of Phx and Scottsdale is on the east.

To be clear, some do consider the location a problem, and many think Scottsdale would be a better location than Glendale. But it is not in the middle of nowhere.

Thanks for the clarification. I've never been to the arena... reacting to what others have mentioned before with regards to the location. That's why I was asking a question about the location.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TjRhythmic

Thanks for the clarification. I've never been to the arena... reacting to what others have mentioned before with regards to the location. That's why I was asking a question about the location.

Yeah no worries. I didn't mean to be snarky but re-reading my post it might sound like I was.

Phoenix has a couple expressways that essentially create a ring-road. The arena is right on this, on the east side - call it 8 o'clock. IMO, that makes for great access. But it is also far away for many, as the greater Phx area is close to 5 million people and very spread out.

It would be kind of like the new arena being built at Stoney Trail and Glenmore on the east side of town. Not far away or the middle of nowhere, but most of the paying customers live on the west side of town.

[Oling_Roachinen]

I think it's a perfectly fair criticism to consider Jobing.com Arena in the middle of nowhere. It was built in what use to be farmland and I know the first time I went there I was certain my GPS was wrong after it had me 'exit' the city and pass a beaten down barn with some donkeys. Was just about to turn around when I saw the University of Phoenix Stadium.

Not necessarily saying it's a long drive, and it's important to understand the makeup of Arizona, but when the arena complex is bordering farmland on 3 of it's 4 sides and the other is a suburban community it's a fair judgement. And as beautiful as the complex is, it was absolutely dead when there wasn't a game being played even on the weekends, at least while I stayed there.

I would maybe say the best comparison would be placing the Flames arena in Airdrie. Like Glendale it would have it's own fanbase of people from Airdrie (and although Airdrie's population is a lot smaller there's probably a much higher amount of hockey fans) but when you're relying heavily on people from Calgary showing up for 40 games often on weekdays you would be limiting some fans in southern Calgary who don't want to have to drive home after work, drive there and then drive back home after the game.

[Enoch Root]

^ I don't think you've been there in a while

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

^ I don't think you've been there in a while

I've been there somewhat recently. What do you disagree with?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

I've been there somewhat recently. What do you disagree with?

It's surrounded by condos, malls, etc

To imply that it's out on its own somewhere is not even close to accurate.

I get that it was built in open space - many things were and that is the nature of city planning.

But it is not out in the country somewhere now. It just isn't.

[sec304]

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=JOBING...90918&t=h&z=16

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It's surrounded by condos, malls, etc

To imply that it's out on its own somewhere is not even close to accurate.

I get that it was built in open space - many things were and that is the nature of city planning.

But it is not out in the country somewhere now. It just isn't.

That's what I referred to as the arena complex.

You'll notice the farmland surrounding the parking lots.

Honestly, when I went I had no clue about the location or arena other than expect to see a lot of Flame fans and not a ton of Coyotes. I independently came to the same conclusion many many people have, it's an odd location for an arena. And again, it's important to understand the make up of Arizona. But all I could think of is where do you meet up with people after the game? I don't know enough about Glendale but with Calgary it's super easy to meet up with people who didn't attend the game somewhere downtown or really anywhere in Calgary. Here they obviously intended to have the 2 bars end up being the entertainment hub, but for the people who weren't fans of hockey there didn't seem to be much reason to end up there. And that seems like a big oversight if you need to decide between watching the Coyotes or meeting up with your non-hockey friends in Arizona.

And the place was absolutely dead on non-game/non-event nights. I watched maybe 6 or 7 Flames games in those pubs since I didn't have much luck finding places showing them elsewhere and the waitresses out numbered the patrons.

Is it the reason the Coyotes are failing in Arizona? No. Has it contribute to it? Probably.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Grump indeed, I know in your drunken fog it may be hard to follow along, but try. The NHL lost $112.7M in operating the Coyotes plus they spent $140M for the franchise plus $10M in court costs. They sold it for $170M, so they are on the hook for $92.7M. The Coyotes have lost money every year they've been in operation. Not only that but the NHL had to loan the new owners $85M. Looking at the recent attendance, I'll be surprised if these new owners can last for 5 years.

Bettman's job should be to do what's best for hockey. I realize he isn't up to that though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix...to_Renaissance

oh yeah, I forgot about the yearly maximum revenue sharing which the Coyotes have been promised.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozan...funded-by-nhl/

And Glendale City Council reimbursed them $25M per year to stay. Maybe what a lot of us don't know was the original lease situation when the NHL took over the team. Maybe, and I don't know, but the lease in existence at the time had huge penalties for moving as the city basically built the arena with guaranties from Elfman and his group years ago when they planned to develop the area. If that is the case then the only way the original lease could be changed was for the team to be sold to new owners who negotiated their own lease, which was done this year.

There are so many factors that we as fans know nothing about it really makes no sense to get upset about the Phoenix situation. And for all of the fans saying Bettman could have moved the team to a places that would sell out every game, where are these places? Richard Peddie was just on OTR and said a second NHL team in Southern Ontario probably wouldn't succeed and specifically mentioned Hamilton. He said they couldn't generate enough revenue to change the leagues financial picture.

One last point, Bettman didn't move the Jets to Phoenix. That was agreed upon before he was hired. If you want to blame someone for the team being there then blame the other owners.

[Enoch Root]

Wonder how old that pic is?

Was just at a buddy's condo a couple weeks ago - on 95th. Turning off Glendale onto 95th it's nothing but condos now. That pic doesn't seem to show the new hotels either.

They are also constantly developing commercial properties all around there.

Anyway, I agree that it's quiet after the game - I go elsewhere. But I don't look to hang around at the Dome after a game either.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

And Glendale City Council reimbursed them $25M per year to stay. Maybe what a lot of us don't know was the original lease situation when the NHL took over the team. Maybe, and I don't know, but the lease in existence at the time had huge penalties for moving as the city basically built the arena with guaranties from Elfman and his group years ago when they planned to develop the area. If that is the case then the only way the original lease could be changed was for the team to be sold to new owners who negotiated their own lease, which was done this year.

There are so many factors that we as fans know nothing about it really makes no sense to get upset about the Phoenix situation. And for all of the fans saying Bettman could have moved the team to a places that would sell out every game, where are these places? Richard Peddie was just on OTR and said a second NHL team in Southern Ontario probably wouldn't succeed and specifically mentioned Hamilton. He said they couldn't generate enough revenue to change the leagues financial picture.

One last point, Bettman didn't move the Jets to Phoenix. That was agreed upon before he was hired. If you want to blame someone for the team being there then blame the other owners.

They lost the $112M after getting the $25M per from Glendale. I think the NHL is still waiting for their last payment.

The lease was ended with the bankruptcy and the team could have been moved at any time since than by the NHL.

Yeah the former CEO of MLSE says that another team in S. Ontario would lose money, how about that. I can't say if a team in Hamilton would work but a billionaire was willing to put his money into it. A study was done by the NHL at the time and it was concluded another team in Toronto would be the third top money maker in the NHL, so there are and were alternatives.

As for who's to blame for the Jets moving to Phoenix, I haven't discussed that. I think it was because of the poor Canadian dollar and the lack of an arena though. What most people wonder, is why a team stays in Phoenix when they have lost money every year they've been there. Sure they've found an owner but they had to lend him money to buy the team.