Swiss may get Unconditional Income

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by RisebroughRuinedMyYouth

If you think this, you must have not paid very much attention in school.

I love first posts like this.

Welcome, and carry on.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by rubecube

You said many, and then used it as evidence to suggest that the program was wasteful or not worthwhile. Do you have any stats to back this up, or just anecdotal testimony?

I didn't say the program was wasteful or not worthwhile. I said, as it stands right now, it's already being abused. That doesn't mean it's not working, as a whole. If you dramatically increased the funds being given out, however, the incentive to work would be decreased and the incentive to fraudulantly collect assistance would be increased.

If the option was getting $2,800/month for doing nothing or $3,200/month for mopping the floors at McDonalds, how many people would show up to work at McDonalds?

Even our current EI and welfare systems are not "guaranteed". You have to be physically unable to work to collect certain kinds of social assistance. You have to have been working or looking for work to collect others. If you just gave a guaranteed monthly income without the requirement to be looking for work or have worked x amount of hours in the last year, the abuse would be rampant.

[flamingreen]

Originally Posted by blankall

If the option was getting $2,800/month for doing nothing or $3,200/month for mopping the floors at McDonalds, how many people would show up to work at McDonalds?

When that extra $400/month means a better quality of life. I would imagine more people would show up than not.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by flamingreen

When that extra $400/month means a better quality of life. I would imagine more people would show up than not.

A slightly better quality of life for 40hrs/week of awful work? I'm not sure how you measure your quality of life. Now take into account the inflationary effect these policies would have.

The reality is that many people in our system already collect EI/social assistance. If they want an extra $400, they do the work under the table. I think you sorely understimate how much income goes unreported on tax returns.

Like I said before even our current social assitance/EI programs are limited and require people to work or look for work.

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by RisebroughRuinedMyYouth

If you think this, you must have not paid very much attention in school.

So you chose to troll CC, with your first post? This will be fun.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by blankall

A slightly better quality of life for 40hrs/week of awful work? I'm not sure how you measure your quality of life. Now take into account the inflationary effect these policies would have.

The reality is that many people in our system already collect EI/social assistance. If they want an extra $400, they do the work under the table. I think you sorely understimate how much income goes unreported on tax returns.

Like I said before even our current social assitance/EI programs are limited and require people to work or look for work.

I woud hope any program like this would have gradual claw backs to incentivise actual work. I think under the table work is a more rational fear of this type of program then people just quittin altogether but taking sumers off would be tempting.

[Brannigans Law]

Originally Posted by flamingreen

When that extra $400/month means a better quality of life. I would imagine more people would show up than not.

You would honestly work full time for 400 dollars a month? Cuz that's the trade off you seem to be making here.

[goaliegirl]

I like the idea, and think it would be interesting to see what happens with it. I think it should be tied to actually having a job though. If you are not working, you do not get subsidized.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Brannigans Law

You would honestly work full time for 400 dollars a month? Cuz that's the trade off you seem to be making here.

Lots of people have a thing called pride, and sitting at home collecting government cheques doesn't make them feel very good about themselves.

[Cowboy89]

This isn't anything new. It's essentially Social Credit policy.

In the equation: A + B = C

A is what people make, C is what they need, then B must be the 'Social Credit' / Mincome that people need to bridge the gap and the government must provide.

The whole thing breaks down when you realize that you have to factor in that the B in the equation has to come from somewhere in the economy, and the addition of B to the equation simultaneously decreases A through less employment and lower employment pay (employers/customers to pay the higher taxes) and increases C through the inflation created by giving away money, and thus a similar balance as before will exist anyway.

If I was to give my opinion I would agree with the corporate CEO pay cap (although 12 times might be a little low in practical terms), but disagree with the minimum income concept. Poor and weak corporate governance has created an executive class whose fortunes are no longer tied with the fortunes of their shareholders and to the fortunes of the middle and lower classes who work in these organizations. Hence the stagnation of middle and lower incomes.

[GP_Matt]

The salary ratio seems fraught with issues.
Would it eliminate stock options as an incentive?
What happens if you own the company?
Would it create an incentive to automate or outsource the lower paid employees?

I like the idea behind it but can't see it standing up to the practical issues.
Another issue that might arise is raises for the top people at smaller companies. I can see a lot of top employees being bumped up to the ceiling simply because it exists and is in the open.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by fotze

Switzerland is quite expensive and has a very high quality of life (or so I've been told).

I think I have also read that they are very restrictive when it comes to immigration which is why the policy might have legs. i.e. they would be paying for this minimum salary for 16 people.

I had a friend that lived there for a few years, and visited a few times. The standard of living, at least that I saw, was crazy good. Everyone had their masters and had managed to dodge military service.

They had one political party who's platform was to "kick out the black sheep" who actually got a decent amount of traction, so yeah, you could say their immigration policies are pretty restrictive.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by RisebroughRuinedMyYouth

If you think this, you must have not paid very much attention in school.

Well we all couldn't go to Hamburger U you know.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

I had a friend that lived there for a few years, and visited a few times. The standard of living, at least that I saw, was crazy good. Everyone had their masters and had managed to dodge military service.

They had one political party who's platform was to "kick out the black sheep" who actually got a decent amount of traction, so yeah, you could say their immigration policies are pretty restrictive.

Switzerland's control over their economy goes well beyond this. They have a strictly controlled educational system. There are only a certain amount of spots available in each faculty, and these quotas are set by the government. Young people are streamed into fields that the economy requires during high school.

There's no "finding yourself" in a liberal arts program.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by blankall

Switzerland's control over their economy goes well beyond this. They have a strictly controlled educational system. There are only a certain amount of spots available in each faculty, and these quotas are set by the government. Young people are streamed into fields that the economy requires during high school.

There's no "finding yourself" in a liberal arts program.

Link(s)? I'd like to read more about this...

[blankall]

Originally Posted by kevman

Link(s)? I'd like to read more about this...

There was a really good special on the CBC on it. Basically, Canada and America are a few of the only countries in the world without centralized control over education.

http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/episodes/generation-jobless

Switzerland's model streams students into either university or apprenticeships when they are 15 or so based on aptitude and marks. They spend their last couple of years of high school preparing for their stream. The number of spots in each program are decided by the government, who uses employment needs to decide how many spots are required for each program.

[Savvy27]

I hope that Switzerland attempts this. There are certainly a lot of question marks about how the implementation would go and what the consequences would be but the answers are merely informed speculation at this point. It would be fascinating to see it put into practice.

[Rerun]

How far does $2800 per month ($33600 per year) go in Switzerland?

Is it comparable to Canada?

If it is, and say I'm in my late teens or early 20's and living with my girlfriend and had no dependents and not too many debts, a household income of $67,200 per year sounds pretty sweet to me. To be honest, if I had some boring job that I hated, and no interesting career prospects, I'd probably quit and live off government pogey.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

Lots of people have a thing called pride, and sitting at home collecting government cheques doesn't make them feel very good about themselves.

That's what booze and drugs are for..

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Rerun

How far does $2800 per month ($33600 per year) go in Switzerland?

Is it comparable to Canada?

If it is, and say I'm in my late teens or early 20's and living with my girlfriend and had no dependents and not too many debts, a household income of $67,200 per year sounds pretty sweet to me. To be honest, if I had some boring job that I hated, and no interesting career prospects, I'd probably quit and live off government pogey.

No.

A pretty simple meal of say spaghetti, is over $30. A beer is $10 - $20 in restaurants and bars.