Cammalleri - going forward

[Imported_Aussie]

We cannot keep all of the veterans, so we need to look at which ones are more valuable to keep on the team:

Stajan - GONE, was valuable before, but Colborne has shown he will be expendable beyond this year as a defensive centre with some offensive potential. Knight, Reinhart also could move into the 4th centre spot late this season or next. Should not be considered to be re-signed IMO, not enough value for the $$ he will demand

Hudler - STAYS - showing great chemistry with franchise cornerstone Monahan, brings winning team experience from Detroit, friendly contract for his production

Glencross - STAYS - he has a NMC and he has it for a reason - he wants to stay. He can kill penalties, chip in goals, and even if he is bumped down to 3rd line duty, he is a team guy with a cap friendly deal - perfect to move long term to the 3rd line, bumping up if needed.

Stempniak - IN DOUBT - cap friendly, but streaky. Plays RW, and that is a position of real organizational weakness. Shown chemistry with Glencross and plays physical in a way that supports skilled players. Jones may have made him expendable, especially is Poirier is ahead of schedule to play in the NHL (I still think he is AHL next year, late season callup).

That leaves Camalleri, who I would also place IN DOUBT - leader on the team, great scorer, though I feel he needs to play with skilled players, as opposed to carrying a line. Clicked with Colborne, so long term, that could be the start of a good secondary scoring unit. Does he fit as a guy potentially on 3rd line minutes if prospects jump over him, especially if he is not a prime PK option?

I think if the price is right, you move Cammalleri, and the price IMO is a RW or defensive (pref. right sided) prospect who is close to or is fully NHL ready, maybe a pick thrown in as a sweetener (2nd or 3rd) if the prospect has question marks. You don't throw him away for a weak return, nor do you retain him blindly unless there is a clear plan (e.g. 2 year deal as guys like Gaudreau, Poirier, etc. are slowly acclimated to professional play, at which time a vet on a short term deal can be dealt)

[Cali Panthers Fan]

We are still woefully thin on real high end defense prospects, so IMHO you must move Cammalleri for another couple of draft picks. Do what Buffalo did this year at the draft. Even though they weren't bottom 5 they snagged Ristolainen and Zadorov in the 1st round, and then had 2 2nd round picks to work with as well.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by strombad

If you call it 6 years, then Calgary is already in year 4 comparatively.

Not comparative at all. We're in year 1. Being crappy doesn't mean you're rebuilding.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Not comparative at all. We're in year 1. Being crappy doesn't mean you're rebuilding.

Exactly, which means St.Louis didn't rebuild for 6 years. Unless having Kariya, Tkachuk, Weight, Brewer, and other vets on your team counts as "rebuilding". The amount of veterans on the team doesn't dictate when they started rebuilding, but they were rebuilding for 3 years.

Not 6, 3.

[Baxter Renegade]

I'm all for keeping squid on the roster. Hes a good guy for the kids to look up to and learn from. A rebuilding team needs some vets that have had success and stats at the NHL level.

I think the Flames do plan on keeping him, but it will really come down to what Cammy wants for his future... If things continue going well for him and the team, comraderie and chemistry continues, I think he stays on for an extension and let's management know he wants to be a part of this.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Imported_Aussie

Stajan - GONE, was valuable before, but Colborne has shown he will be expendable beyond this year as a defensive centre with some offensive potential. Knight, Reinhart also could move into the 4th centre spot late this season or next. Should not be considered to be re-signed IMO, not enough value for the $$ he will demand

Stajan will be gone, but it's definitely not because of Colborne. He's had like 2 effective games out of 11.

[GGG]

I would perfer Cammy over Stempniak over the next 3 - 5 years. I think we need to keep one. I would sign him to a front loaded 5 year deal so that after year 3 he is tradalbe if we need cap space or he wants out. Something like 8,8,8,4,2 for an AAV of 6. The flames can easily afford it budget wise and easily tradable for the last 2 years even if he is just a 20 goal guy at that point.

Barring other changes We would have 1 opening in the top 9 and 1 or 2 openings on the 4th line. So Gaudreau and Poirer compete for the top 9 spot and the guys like Ferland and Hanowski compete for that 4th line spot. As we have seen this year injuries well allow at least 1 more person into the line up in a top 9 role so generally we will have 2 rookies in the top 9 and 1 in the bottom 3.

[STeeLy]

Originally Posted by GGG

I would perfer Cammy over Stempniak over the next 3 - 5 years. I think we need to keep one. I would sign him to a front loaded 5 year deal so that after year 3 he is tradalbe if we need cap space or he wants out. Something like 8,8,8,4,2 for an AAV of 6. The flames can easily afford it budget wise and easily tradable for the last 2 years even if he is just a 20 goal guy at that point.

If I understand the CBA correctly, the bolded deal you're proposing is no longer legal (your numbers would have to change).

[Zevo]

I like Cammy but the California road trip has shown me that we definitely need to get bigger. With Baertschi, Hudler, and hopefully Gaudreau in a year or two, we need to add size on the wings. If it doesn't come from the farm team or by trade , it would be nice to pick up another D. Jones type player this off season.

Hopefully they can get good packages for Stajan, Stempniak and Cammy.

[stemit14]

Tough to get guys like that without drafting them. I could see a guy like Stewart in St. Louis maybe being an option but contenders like holding on to power forwards for the playoffs.

[Miniac]

This is a good problem to have.

[Vinny01]

I think the Flames are best served to trade off most of their pending UFA's.

Jackman - not sure anyone would offer a late pick for him but you never know when teams want to address toughness at the deadline

Cammy - will likely fetch us the biggest return and we nee o open up #13 for Johnny Hockey

Stempniak - great guy but he is north of 30 and very streaky. I think he will have strong value at the deadline and there is always a chance to bring him back next summer if they really want but I think we should be looking at brigning in more young players next year

Stajan - Need to make room for more young centers in the lineup. Monahan, Colborne, Backlund, Knight could finish the year as our center core and I would be happy

Butler - if we can get anything for him that would be nice

MacDonald - move him if you can at the deadline and bring Berra up

I would keep Russell and Galliardi for sure as well as Hudler, Wideman, Jones, Glencross, Giordano, SOB and other vets who I may have missed that still have contracts beyond the season.

The Flames armed with several picks from these trades will allow them to make some moves in the offseason to get some new vets in the room preferabbly in the 23-28 age range.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by strombad

Exactly, which means St.Louis didn't rebuild for 6 years. Unless having Kariya, Tkachuk, Weight, Brewer, and other vets on your team counts as "rebuilding". The amount of veterans on the team doesn't dictate when they started rebuilding, but they were rebuilding for 3 years.

Not 6, 3.

The Blues rebuild started in 2007, when they brought in Davidson and dealt Guerin, Weight, and Tkachuk (three of their top five scorers) for picks. You'll note they didn't hang on to those guys hoping for a short rebuild. They got what they could for them, and built through the draft.

Two years into the rebuild - where the Flames will be next season - this is what the Blues top 10 scorers looked like (they brought Tkachuk back):

Boyes 26
Backes 24
Perron 20
Tkachuk 36
Berglund 20
MacDonald 31
Oshie 21
Carlo Colaiacovo 25
McClemment 25
Steen 24

Only two players over 26. Lots of growing pains. But they drafted Pietrangelo and Allan that year.

You could say they turned the corner in 2011. So four years. But again, they didn't feel the need to hang on to a bunch of veterans during the rebuild. When they figured they were back in win now mode in 2011, they signed Arnott and Langenbrunner for veteran presence and playoff experience.

[CliffFletcher]

The real question is how do you rebuild without having more and better picks than your peers? Just hope that you consistently outsmart every other team in the conference with your drafting? The whole point of a rebuild is to stack the prospects deck in your favour with more and better picks. So if we don't get them from trading our vets like Cammalleri, where do we get them?

[Tinordi]

It arguably started after the lockout in 2006 when the Blues didn't re-sign Pronger and dealt Weight and Sillinger that season. They brought Weight back (no reason we couldn't do the same for Cammalleri). But got a first and 4th rounder for him.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The real question is how do you rebuild without having more and better picks than your peers? Just hope that you consistently outsmart every other team in the conference with your drafting? The whole point of a rebuild is to stack the prospects deck in your favour with more and better picks. So if we don't get them from trading our vets like Cammalleri, where do we get them?

One way is winning trades like the Leafs did. Toronto got Phaneuf, Lupul, Gardiner, JVR, Bolland, Bernier, Franson for relatively little. I do agree with most of what you said and it appears every year at the draft decent players are moved for 2nd round picks and if the Flames can get 3 more of those then they have some good chips to trade for new veteran players at the draft.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

I would love to see him stay on a good contract but I think the challenge with cammalleri is timing, and it all but guarantees he will be traded.

More than any of the UFAs I think it is unlikely he signs before the trade deadline, and the flames won't (I don't think) keep him past that if they get any kind of decent offer. The flames MO seems to be a pick and a depth prospect in return. Most contenders won't want to give up a roster player.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by strombad

If you call it 6 years, then Calgary is already in year 4 comparatively.

Just to emphasize how wrong this point is:

Since 2006 (the draft after the lockout)

The Blues have had the following number of picks:

2006: 9 (two 1st rounders, two 4th rounders)
2007: 10 (three 1st rounders, 2 2nd rounders, 2 4th rounders)
2008: 10 (two 2nd rounders, three 3rd rounders)
2009: 6 (no 5th rounder)
2010: 7 (two 1st rounders)
2011: 8 (no 1st rounder, three 2nd rounders)
2012: 8 (two 3rd rounder)

The Flames since their rebuild began according to you four years ago:

2009: 6 (no 2nd rounder)
2010: 6 (no 1st or 2nd rounder, two 3rd and 4th rounders)
2011: 5 (two 2nd rounders)
2012: 7
2013: 8 (three 1st rounders, no 2nd rounder)

The only draft, that looks anything close to St Louis' rebuild to (successfully) build a contender is the most recent draft, the first year of Calgary's rebuild. If we want to emulate St. Louis' model then we ship guys like Cammelleri off and stock pile draft picks so that we're picking more than seven times in a draft.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Just to emphasize how wrong this point is:

Since 2006 (the draft after the lockout)

The Blues have had the following number of picks:

2006: 9 (two 1st rounders, two 4th rounders)
2007: 10 (three 1st rounders, 2 2nd rounders, 2 4th rounders)
2008: 10 (two 2nd rounders, three 3rd rounders)
2009: 6 (no 5th rounder)
2010: 7 (two 1st rounders)
2011: 8 (no 1st rounder, three 2nd rounders)
2012: 8 (two 3rd rounder)

The Flames since their rebuild began according to you four years ago:

2009: 6 (no 2nd rounder)
2010: 6 (no 1st or 2nd rounder, two 3rd and 4th rounders)
2011: 5 (two 2nd rounders)
2012: 7
2013: 8 (three 1st rounders, no 2nd rounder)

The only draft, that looks anything close to St Louis' rebuild to (successfully) build a contender is the most recent draft, the first year of Calgary's rebuild. If we want to emulate St. Louis' model then we ship guys like Cammelleri off and stock pile draft picks so that we're picking more than seven times in a draft.

Is the rebuild a success for you when we first win the division, or first trade away our high draft picks for players? Because quite frankly I'd lean towards the former.

I'm not sure what point you're making.

[Enoch Root]

I like Cammalleri's attitude and work ethic.

And I believe that you have to have some solid veterans around for leadership and structure.

But I still think we should trade Cammalleri.

Get what you can for him and then throw some of our cap space at a UFA - one that will fill a hole and bring the right kind of attitude. I don't care what it costs as long as it isn't for a whole bunch of years.

Overpaying someone for 2 or 3 years costs the team nothing other than money - and the floor will be a challenge anyway.

Get the picks and fill a hole with cash.