Ring Road To Nowhere

[getbak]

Originally Posted by polak

If thats market value then we really shouldn't have complained when convenience stores were selling bottles of water for whatever during the flood.

There are laws specifically against greatly raising prices during an emergency.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by fotze

Do you feel like a big man though?

Very big.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by polak

Were neighbors in need. 275 million is easily fair market value for that land without giving, for free, double the land back.

Nope. We are neighbours that have a want. Having the SW Ring Road is not a necessity.

Add to that the fact that throughout the course of the history of this country, the deals worked out with the First Nations have been lopsided, or made under duress. Personally I think we got a pretty good deal. We traded land we hadn't used since Alberta was part of the NWT, and gave them some cash. The TTN also knew they could have asked for twice as much money and we would have caved; instead they focused on getting rid of ambiguous wording that IMHO didn't belong in a $275 contract, nevermind $275 million.

So even if you think we got short changed, our history with them didn't require any consideration on their part. However they did.

[polak]

Ah okay. Lets stick with the white guilt angle then


Est. 1497

[psicodude]

Why would the TTN be concerned about being a good neighbour. This was business, pure and simple. They negotiated for and received what they felt was the best price for the land and I say good for them. It's not their fault nobody in this province can plan more than 5 years out at a time.

Can we go back to talking about fly-overs and basket weaves now please?

[polak]

Originally Posted by psicodude

Why would the TTN be concerned about being a good neighbour. This was business, pure and simple. They negotiated for and received what they felt was the best price for the land and I say good for them. It's not their fault nobody in this province can plan more than 5 years out at a time.

Can we go back to talking about fly-overs and basket weaves now please?

Well one, because being forced to be adjacent to one another has sort of forced us into a position where being friendly would be extremely beneficial to both of us but like this deal has showed us, the tsuu tsina population is pretty short sided when it comes to negotiations.

two, considering that they use our infrastructure for free on a extreme basis, you think there might be a bit of goodwill earned. But hey... thats crazy talk.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by polak

Ah okay. Lets stick with the white guilt angle then


Est. 1497

The White Whining angle is much better.

I'm a good neighbour. If you are ever selling your yard, let me know. I have a feeling I could get a hell of a deal.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by polak

Well one, because being forced to be adjacent to one another has sort of forced us into a position where being friendly would be extremely beneficial to both of us but like this deal has showed us, the tsuu tsina population is pretty short sided when it comes to negotiations.

two, considering that they use our infrastructure for free on a extreme basis, you think there might be a bit of goodwill earned. But hey... thats crazy talk.

That's awesome...

Considering ALL of Alberta was once governed by First Nations and through 'fair' treaties Governance over that land/resources passed over to the Alberta/Canadian Government.

From that land our economy and infrastructure emerged.

So who exactly is using whose infrastructure for 'free'?

[KelVarnsen]

Like a good neighbour, State Farm is there.

[browna]

Originally Posted by fotze

The agreement will see the Tsuu T’ina Nation sell 428.1 hectares (1,058 acres) of its land to the Government of Alberta for:

• the transfer of 2,030.8 hectares (5,018.1 acres) of Crown land to the Tsuu T’ina Nation
• $340.7 million ($275 million for the land plus $65.7 million to cover impacts on the reserve)
• approval for the Nation to purchase an additional 129.5 hectares (320 acres) of Crown land from the Government of Alberta for $1.6 million
• Alberta will purchase a corner of the Weaselhead Park from the City of Calgary
• the existing high-pressure gas line and overhead electrical lines will be relocated from Weaselhead Park to the transportation and utility corridor

Anyone know what the last deal was for.

Looks like this deal is for approx. $356MM,

Toss in $20m goodwill payout/2nd payment to the TNN from the Feds for a long standing dispute on the Wesealhead in July.

[Northendzone]

So if you add in the cost of this deal, plus construction costs, I am assuming this portion of the road will be $1.5 billion+??????

Wonder what that works out to on a per km basis???

[chalms04]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

So the Herald's Jason Markusoff is trying to get the term Ringstraße going for the ring road. Let's make it happen people.

I've always been fond of:

[polak]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

That's awesome...

Considering ALL of Alberta was once governed by First Nations and through 'fair' treaties Governance over that land/resources passed over to the Alberta/Canadian Government.

From that land our economy and infrastructure emerged.

So who exactly is using whose infrastructure for 'free'?

And once again back to the pre 1800s we go...

You're talking about a time when the population of alberta worked out to far less than 1 person per 10 sqkm.

and then we wonder why we have 15 page threads that cant figure out how the reserve system is so ingrained into our government despite its purely negative impact.

again white guilt should have had zero impact on this deal.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by psicodude

Why would the TTN be concerned about being a good neighbour. This was business, pure and simple. They negotiated for and received what they felt was the best price for the land and I say good for them. It's not their fault nobody in this province can plan more than 5 years out at a time.

Can we go back to talking about fly-overs and basket weaves now please?

I can't believe no one else thanked this. Its business. If I sold my house for a ridiculous amount of money my buddies would give me high fives and congratulate me. The TTN got a good deal because they had a buyer who really wanted the property. To suggest 'white guilt' is an factor is just plain wrong. Its business, and the TTN had one chance to make this deal. They were completely fair here and just made sure to make a deal that they could bring their voters to get acceptance.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

So if you add in the cost of this deal, plus construction costs, I am assuming this portion of the road will be $1.5 billion+??????

$2B is my guess. Huge three level interchange at Glenmore/Sarcee which includes 2 tunnels, extensive modification to the existing three level interchange at 16 Ave, big interchange at 22X, extensive modification to the existing Macleod/22X interchange, very long bridges due to the ultimate plan, moving/demolishing tons of stuff, tons of earthworks, realigning rivers/creeks, 2nd bridge over the Bow north of 16 Ave could get thrown into the contract as well.

Mazrim and 5seconds likely have things to add to this list that I forgot. Gonna be pricey for sure.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by Acey

$2B is my guess. Huge three level interchange at Glenmore/Sarcee which includes 2 tunnels, extensive modification to the existing three level interchange at 16 Ave, big interchange at 22X, extensive modification to the existing Macleod/22X interchange, very long bridges due to the ultimate plan, moving/demolishing tons of stuff, tons of earthworks, realigning rivers/creeks, 2nd bridge over the Bow north of 16 Ave could get thrown into the contract as well.

Mazrim and 5seconds likely have things to add to this list that I forgot. Gonna be pricey for sure.

And worth every single cent.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Slava

I can't believe no one else thanked this. Its business. If I sold my house for a ridiculous amount of money my buddies would give me high fives and congratulate me. The TTN got a good deal because they had a buyer who really wanted the property. To suggest 'white guilt' is an factor is just plain wrong. Its business, and the TTN had one chance to make this deal. They were completely fair here and just made sure to make a deal that they could bring their voters to get acceptance.

Precisely, these people were simply maximizing their profit, and everyone else would have done exactly the same thing. It's their land based on treaty, they had the leverage. Want a road? Pony up. The end.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Slava

I can't believe no one else thanked this. Its business. If I sold my house for a ridiculous amount of money my buddies would give me high fives and congratulate me. The TTN got a good deal because they had a buyer who really wanted the property. To suggest 'white guilt' is an factor is just plain wrong. Its business, and the TTN had one chance to make this deal. They were completely fair here and just made sure to make a deal that they could bring their voters to get acceptance.

Except now imagine that who ever sold the new house also gets to live in it and use it free of charge. Also imagine that its some one that you have to work with on a very regular basis and having a good relationship with them is pretty important and they had to buy that house cause they were in a pretty serious bind.

I dont know, I guess I refuse to look at it simply as a regular business transaction.

If we tolled all of the TTN nation access points I would be able to view it more as a straight property purchase.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by polak

I dont know, I guess I refuse to look at it simply as a regular business transaction.

Two very large organizations each with thousands of steakholders made a deal worth hundreds of millions of dollars. You are right- it is actually a very serious business transaction. This wasn't you selling a car to your uncle; this isn't your buddy selling you a house. The scale of this deal is mind boggling. And it was still a good deal for the province IMHO.

Originally Posted by polak

If we tolled all of the TTN nation access points I would be able to view it more as a straight property purchase.

That was actually part of the negotiations. I believe the 2009 deal fell through because of two key points:
- Province talked of "best effort" to get the TTN the land being promised. That was because the land was under lease until 2012; so legally one cannot promise something that they don't currently have control over.
- The city refused to make any promises about access to TTN; especially the Casino.

This time both of those key sticking points were addressed.

And let's say you still think this is a "selling a car to a familly member" type of deal where there should be consideration. The level of poverty on reserves is quite sobering. Even the TTN who do well compared to other reserves that I have visited, there are still people living in conditions that would make a 4-plex in Forest Lawn look like the Taj Mahal. So now look at it that you are buying a car from your 17 year old niece. She needs the money for tuition. She is asking $5000 for the car, but you think you could probably get her down to $4000. You can afford the car, you need this exact model, and this car is so rare that the only other car like it is selling for $15,000. (And has twice as many km on it.) Do you accept her offer of $5000? It's what she's asking, you can afford it, you cannot get it for less than triple the price anywhere else, and her getting the money will allow her to get the education she needs to make a good life for herself.

[browna]

Shame that it took 4 years to get things that extra sweetener over the 2009 deal, but it's done.

And I do hope its a regular, cut and dry business transaction with the TNN for the land; and the provisions as to timing and what the TNN gets out of this as far as access etc, and that everything is clearly defined from the start.

Thus, the city and province can go ahead at their pace and plan/adjust/modify the Stoneyburgring plan as they see fit, independent of the TNN. I am sure the TNN wanted a provision to add the access road that you see coming from E/B Glenmore (that eventually hooks up with an interchange further west) as one of the first steps, so they can get more traffic to their devleopment. If no such promise or provision is in the original deal, and the project logistical plan calls for that as the last step, then so be it.

Basically, once its all official and land transfers have been made and shovels in the ground, that it's the province/city/feds land, and they can do with it what they wish. It's a ring road project of course, but if they want to build an amusement park over 20 acres instead of a bigger interchange, it's their land to do so without interference or protest from the TNN.