Is Bob Hartley the right coach for this team?

[trackercowe]

You can't put Glencross in the pressbox, you just can't. Stick him on the pine, sure, but scratching him would be the wrong move for so many reasons (I shouldn't even need to list them). Go ahead and scratch Jackman or someone along those lines, but you can't do that to veterans like Glencross. That bodes double if they are trying to trade them; no one team wants players they perceive as lazy malcontents.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Come on, there's no reason Sven should have sat tonight.

He sat because he has a smaller contract than Stajan.

An explanation from Hartley...

Asked for an assessment of Baertschi’s recent play, the Flames coach said, “It’s been OK. With the puck, he’s pretty creative. But he’s a young player and we want more.”

“Just overall,” replied Hartley. “Overall commitment to learn the game in the three zones. To come up with great efforts every game. I always mention (Montreal’s Brendan) Gallagher to him. It’s a matter of choice.”

Baertschi’s response to the public scolding.....

“I’m pretty good at seeing things coming,” Baertschi said. “The way the last game went, I felt that they weren’t too happy. I don’t think I would be a big help on the fourth line because I’m not really experienced in that part. So it’s either first, second, or third line — or out of the lineup for me, I think.

“I have to deal with the situation,” said Baertschi. “I know how to play in this league. I know how to play hockey. So the thing is, things aren’t going well all the time. A few bad shifts and you’re out of the lineup. What do you want to do now? Just focus on what’s coming up. Forget about the game (Thursday) and move forward. Work hard in practice and get back in the lineup.”

“The main thing is, I’ve been really trying to improve my defensive game,” said Baertschi, who turned 21 earlier this month. “I’ve made some strides there. I’ve been working on it really well and I’ve been talking to the coach and doing some video. Now it comes down to the little details . . . that I have to do better. I know they’re getting better every single day. My plus-minus isn’t that awful. That’s a good thing for me . . . because I want to help the team offensively, but I also want to help defensively. That means preventing goals.”

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...353/story.html

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

You can't put Glencross in the pressbox, you just can't. Stick him on the pine, sure, but scratching him would be the wrong move for so many reasons (I shouldn't even need to list them). Go ahead and scratch Jackman or someone along those lines, but you can't do that to veterans like Glencross. That bodes double if they are trying to trade them; no one team wants players they perceive as lazy malcontents.

Yeah because we wouldn't want veterans to be mad during this rebuild. We finished 6th worse in the league last year with them, I'm not too afraid of where we end up this year with players like Glencross having to look in the mirror.

[Matty81]

I like Hartley's system but the handling of Baertschi is criminal so far this year. You are a rebuilding team and you bench your 20 year old top prospect for a bunch of 30ish slugs after destroying his confidence in the media?

And to boot, he hasn't even played badly - he's one of the only plus players on the team and has 4 points in limited icetime.

Trying to turn him into a crap disturber like Gallagher is pointless and hardheaded - it's not and has never been his game. Would have expected this out of a Sutter maybe. Wouldn't think of firing Hartley but Feaster has got to step in and tell him to get the kids in the lineup in a year like this or the rebuild is going to take a decade. Unfortunately Burke seems to hate Baertschi as well.

[TjRhythmic]

Originally Posted by Matty81

I like Hartley's system but the handling of Baertschi is criminal so far this year. You are a rebuilding team and you bench your 20 year old top prospect for a bunch of 30ish slugs after destroying his confidence in the media?

And to boot, he hasn't even played badly - he's one of the only plus players on the team and has 4 points in limited icetime.

Trying to turn him into a crap disturber like Gallagher is pointless and hardheaded - it's not and has never been his game. Would have expected this out of a Sutter maybe. Wouldn't think of firing Hartley but Feaster has got to step in and tell him to get the kids in the lineup in a year like this or the rebuild is going to take a decade. Unfortunately Burke seems to hate Baertschi as well.

They don't hate him. You read waaayyyyy to much into the comments.

And where did they ever say that they want him to be a crap disturber as you put it. They want him to work hard in all three zones... no shifts off. Just because they say work hard, doesn't mean, be an idiot.

Gallagher was used as a reference with how he skates all the time, and plays bigger than his size.

And anyone that thinks a pro athlete doesn't need to learn how to play in all 3 zones is completely and utterly stupid.... look how well it's working up north with talented players only focusing on playing in 1 zone.

They sat him because they want more from him, they know he can do better. If they hated him, pretty sure they wouldn't care what he does as they'd just get rid of him. Fact is they know he has the ability to be better, they want him to be a part of the future and they are being hard on him because they want to see him succeed.

And sitting in the pressbox isn't a bad thing for a kid, he gets to see the game from above and see where the open spots are and you learn how to see the game. Hence why most people on here think they know more then everyone else by watching the game on tv. Easy to see everything when your looking down on the game.

[Travis Munroe]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

You can't put Glencross in the pressbox, you just can't. Stick him on the pine, sure, but scratching him would be the wrong move for so many reasons (I shouldn't even need to list them). Go ahead and scratch Jackman or someone along those lines, but you can't do that to veterans like Glencross. That bodes double if they are trying to trade them; no one team wants players they perceive as lazy malcontents.

I can come up with 2 reasons for him to be a scratch to every 1 come up with keeping him in the lineup!
I have said since this season started, I like Glencross, he is a good player but simply doesnt fit with this offence. Some will blame it on confidence. Confidence is had by working you @$$ off and he isnt even doing that.

I think some negative media attention/press box for a couple games would actually spark glencross more than having him suite up and go through the motions each game.

[Matty81]

The whole not playing hard in all 3 zones criticism I don't agree with. I've watched every game and I've really never seen Baertschi not skate back hard or attack the puck in the neutral zone when there are puck battles on his wing. Easy enough to spot an example of not playing hard when you've got Glencross loafing around all game setting the bar.

I don't know maybe others disagree, but I haven't seen a lot of criticism of him in game threads or discussions either.

Calling people stupid over and over again doesn't really change my opinion. It seems like they are having personality issues behind the scenes or something more than meets the eye is going on, because on ice he has looked fine to me. Either that or burke and hartley, both noted for loving physical play, are trying to change the type of player he is more fundamentally.

[Buck Murdock]

My guess is that Bob walked up behind him when Sven was doing his Bob Hartley impression for the other guys, where he joked about all 3 zones in a thick French Canadian accent......Bob probably didn't like it.....

Or maybe Sven put saran wrap on the coaches toilet? Glued Bob's shoes to the ground? Put a tack on his chair?

[Mr.Coffee]

It was an atrocious decision to bench Baertschi and it didn't make a lot of sense. Now to be fair I didn't see the Phoenix game, and another poster indicated that game was weak for Baertschi and indeed even his comments indicate that he himself knew it wasn't great.

That said, Glencross is getting away with murder and it's strictly because of age. Stajan should have come in and replaced Glencross. He hasn't even earned the right to play in the NHL this season let alone first line minutes and if Baertschi has had 1 bad game well Glencross has had 8-9!

And the problem is that when it is not clear what's going on, based on the on ice performance at least, you're not even sending a message because nobody understands what the coach is even asking. Be like Gallagher? He isn't that type of player. How about do the things that got you to the NHL level. He hasn't really been that irresponsible defensively, has he? Not like Butler, another easy scratch candidate.

This whole 'meritocracy' clearly doesn't exist. Otherwise a few of the "veterans" read:lazies, would be getting the press box.

Also the notion that people here can't express an opinion because they aren't in the locker room or aren't an NHL level coach is the most fundamentally stupid commentary I don't even know where to begin, and I see those comments a lot. Yeah, no fataing kidding I'm not in the dressing room, but that's the point of this message board and discussion, people are allowed to read into actions, interviews and rumours, and nobody ever claims to 100% know the situation ever anyway. These defences are usually raised when the Flames are being questioned and posters rush to the defence of the team because it's being criticized and they don't actually have a response other than- "you're overreacting", or "you're not the coach or qualified to make a statement". Oh really? Wonderful insight. But, unfortunately for you, this is a message board and my opinions don't 100% have to be in support of the Flames, particularly when they do non-sense moves like sit the rookie who doesn't deserve to be sat in an actual meritocracy, when the direction this team must stick to is the youth movement. Not the, float around vet movement. We've been tortured by that movement for, literally, years.

[DeluxeMoustache]

One way to evaluate whether a coach is the right coach is whether the same mistakes that hurt a team reoccur. And it is not the night of a loss, it is the next several games.

Hartley says that Monahan likes to learn and doesn't need to be told things twice. The options for Monahan after game 9 were to keep him or to send him to junior. For Sven, the options are Flames (dressing), Flames ( scratch), or Abbotsford. Maybe Sven has an early sense of entitlement. He really has not consistently lit it up in the NHL to the point that he should feel too comfortable. 4 pts in 9 games is pretty darn unimpressive. And he does not have the full year vet stats to indicate that he can consistently produce. Hartley says he wants more. I know he said he is creative with the puck but these are not earth shattering offensive numbers offset by a huge minus.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

One way to evaluate whether a coach is the right coach is whether the same mistakes that hurt a team reoccur. And it is not the night of a loss, it is the next several games.

Hartley says that Monahan likes to learn and doesn't need to be told things twice. The options for Monahan after game 9 were to keep him or to send him to junior. For Sven, the options are Flames (dressing), Flames ( scratch), or Abbotsford. Maybe Sven has an early sense of entitlement. He really has not consistently lit it up in the NHL to the point that he should feel too comfortable. 4 pts in 9 games is pretty darn unimpressive. And he does not have the full year vet stats to indicate that he can consistently produce. Hartley says he wants more. I know he said he is creative with the puck but these are not earth shattering offensive numbers offset by a huge minus.

What's the huge minus?

[FlamesAddiction]

Baertschi will get there and I think Hartley is doing him a favour in the long term. The threat of being scratched has to be real if it is going to work as a deterent against not playing in all 3 zones. I also have no issue with Baertschi being held to a high standard. His development into a complete player is crucial for this team.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Baertschi will get there and I think Hartley is doing him a favour in the long term. The threat of being scratched has to be real if it is going to work as a deterent against not playing in all 3 zones. I also have no issue with Baertschi being held to a high standard. His development into a complete player is crucial for this team.

lol well we know that the threat of being scratched is indeed not real and instead artificial for 95% of the team (the 5% for whatever reason, being Baertschi).

[ComixZone]

A few bad shifts and you’re out of the lineup

This is what's wrong with how this organization develops talent. You have to give younger players the space to make, and then learn from their mistakes.

Monahan, Brodie, Butler and others seem to get this leeway...for whatever reason, Sven doesn't.

Stupid is as stupid does.

[Gary83]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Baertschi will get there and I think Hartley is doing him a favour in the long term. The threat of being scratched has to be real if it is going to work as a deterent against not playing in all 3 zones. I also have no issue with Baertschi being held to a high standard. His development into a complete player is crucial for this team.

People will disagree with you, but I agree. Baertschi has had a couple of nice, solid plays this season but he has also been underwhelming aswell.

Glencross is probably the only forward that should have been scratched before him.

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by bluck

Some weird moves by Hartley over this week.. I didn't want to make a new thread so I thought I would just bump this one to discuss some of the things I've seen.

4. Someone please explain to me the love he had for Ben Street.. I never saw it but he played him a ton.
5. I have liked the push back from this team but it seems like we are always playing catch up... I would love to see us play with the lead and have the other teams chase us. I don't know maybe some first period adjustments? If we could play every period like the 3rd we would probably have a lot more wins.

4. Because he was actually playing well? Perhaps not the most productive offensively but he made all the right plays defensively. When your other options are Backlund already in the top 6, Monahan who is a rookie with slowly increasing responsibilities and Colborne who needs to learn the system, it's not hard to see why Street got the minutes he did.
5. In our little hot streak at the start, the Flames outscored the opposition by a serious amount in the 1st. Don't have the stat but it's certainly more so playing against solid teams who have started to shake the rust and become wary of the upstart Flames.

[lifetimefan]

Originally Posted by Gary83

Glencross is probably the only forward that should have been scratched before him.

Disagree.

Glencross > Jackman > .... Baertschi.

[kipperfan]

I wouldn't have had a huge issue with Sven being sat, if the other underperformers (I don't think Sven has underperformed, but clearly Hartley does...) were also sat in due course. But that clearly isn't happening. Just like the last coaching regime, Hartley clearly has his favourites (Glencross, Butler, Jackman, etc.) and those guys can basically play as poorly as they want and the only consequence is getting even more icetime next game.

Sitting down a young kid like Sven for a game is not a big deal at all in the long run IMO; but it does show, rather clearly, that there is no meritocracy being practised on this team. How many more games in a row does Glencross have to mail it in before he gets his chance to sit out a game? How many more goals does Butler have to cause before they give Smith a chance? How many more times does Jackman have to fall over or get **it kicked before they put him out to pasture?

[Poe969]

Older coach likes "old style" hockey. Hartley likes those hard workers that will do what it takes to get the job done, even though they dont' have the skill and they take some nights off because they gave it their all the previous game, he likes them.

He likes his vets. Plain and simple. He isn't built to coach in today's NHL, things have changed and he either needs to change with them (which he clearly hasn't) or move on.

[Stay Golden]

Benching Sven accomplished nothing when the team plays flat and gets shelled 5-1. That plan blew up in Hartley and the Brass's face.