Ongoing Senate scandal

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I think Harper is making a pretty good case, so far, for the abolition of the Senate.

I think people are getting pretty tired of some Conservative and Liberal Senator's misbehavior and their sense of entitlement and elitism.

How is he making a good case? By sheer incompetence in his selection of senators?

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Slava

Nice try. The issue here isn't the senate though, its people who are "entitled to their entitlements" as stated in the article, and criminals. Harper isn't making a case for anything other than him being implicated in the cover-up.

The Senate is ALLWAYS an issue. I used to be for Senate reform but I'm slowly moving towards abolition. I don't think its problems can be fixed. Better to blow it up...

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

How is he making a good case? By sheer incompetence in his selection of senators?

Absolutely! Some say incompetence but others say genius, eh?
He couldn't get people to allow him to reform it so now he's highlighting how corrupt it is and hopefully John Q Public will demand its demise.

[Caged Great]

Make the senate an elected position. Problem solved. No need to throw out the whole section of government for no reason

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Rerun

The Senate is ALLWAYS an issue. I used to be for Senate reform but I'm slowly moving towards abolition. I don't think its problems can be fixed. Better to blow it up...

Well if the only basis for selecting senators is old media hacks and people with very little in terms of honour or honesty then sure its beyond repair. These people are having issues because they lied about where they lived for crying out loud! We're not talking about simple mistakes; its a knowing and willing effort to cheat the system and they got caught. Now the PM and his office have colluded to cover this up. Just disgraceful.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Absolutely! Some say incompetence but others say genius, eh?
He couldn't get people to allow him to reform it so now he's highlighting how corrupt it is and hopefully John Q Public will demand its demise.

That little scheme would ensure his demise if true.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Make the senate an elected position. Problem solved. No need to throw out the whole section of government for no reason

Harper and Mulroney have tried and tried and tried... to no avail. If they could make this simple change by themselves, they would have. But they can't so it has never happened and probably never will.

I suspect we will always have un-elected / appointed senators (some good... some bad) until the place is dismantled.

[Cuz]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Harper and Mulroney have tried and tried and tried... to no avail. If they could make this simple change by themselves, they would have. But they can't so it has never happened and probably never will.

I suspect we will always have un-elected / appointed senators (some good... some bad) until the place is dismantled.

I am all for an elected senate. The problem is to do so would require constitutional change, something Canadians don't really have the stomach for after the Meech Lake and Charlottetown accords....

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well if the only basis for selecting senators is old media hacks and people with very little in terms of honour or honesty then sure its beyond repair. These people are having issues because they lied about where they lived for crying out loud! We're not talking about simple mistakes; its a knowing and willing effort to cheat the system and they got caught. Now the PM and his office have colluded to cover this up. Just disgraceful.

Perhaps all senate appointees should have to submit to a lie detector test before their appointment and on a yearly basis thereafter. How was Harper to know that some of the well respected people that he appointed were in fact liars and cheats.

As for the PM and his office colluding to cover this up... show me proof.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Make the senate an elected position. Problem solved. No need to throw out the whole section of government for no reason

Worst idea ever. Having two houses of government that need to get re-elected is terrible. Just leads to more spending on pet issues in exchange for getting things passed. We have run as an effective single level of government for 50 years and we should continue.

And the bolded part is backwards. It should be that there needs to be a reason for each layer of government to exist. Provinces run just fine without a senate, so do cities and the federal government as run fine without one. So unless we can identify some benefit for having two different parties in power at once and justify tat change the senate should either be abolished o left as a money pit that doesnt do anything but at least causes no damage

[Cuz]

Originally Posted by GGG

Worst idea ever. Having two houses of government that need to get re-elected is terrible. Just leads to more spending on pet issues in exchange for getting things passed. We have run as an effective single level of government for 50 years and we should continue.

And the bolded part is backwards. It should be that there needs to be a reason for each layer of government to exist. Provinces run just fine without a senate, so do cities and the federal government as run fine without one. So unless we can identify some benefit for having two different parties in power at once and justify tat change the senate should either be abolished o left as a money pit that doesnt do anything but at least causes no damage

The benefit of having the second chamber (at least in the Westminster model), is the senate is proportional representation rather than representation by population like the House of Commons. Now we do need to adjust our proportional representation numbers (western Canada is under represented while the Maritimes is over represented), but the principle remains the same.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Perhaps all senate appointees should have to submit to a lie detector test before their appointment and on a yearly basis thereafter. How was Harper to know that some of the well respected people that he appointed were in fact liars and cheats.

As for the PM and his office colluding to cover this up... show me proof.

I have a feeling that sooner rather than later you'll get got wish for proof and you won't like what you see. However for the proof that is public knowledge, Duffy's lawyer held a press conference and had possession of a binder containing emails from the PMO directing Duffy to take the money, play ball or be fired. RCMP affidavits allege that through evidence gained the PM's legal advisor, senior senators and others in the PMO knew about the deal. You have the PM himself not giving clear answers to direct questions, bactracking on his previous statement of no one but Wright and Duffy were involved.

No smoking gun as of yet, however the noose is tightening and there isn't any wigge room left. He's put himself to a story and it's full of holes.

[Knut]

An easier change than Abolition or Elected senates would be mandatory posting of expenses on a website that anyone could access.

These senators got caught, but I bet there likely 50-100 more senators doing the same crap.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

I have a feeling that sooner rather than later you'll get got wish for proof and you won't like what you see. However for the proof that is public knowledge, Duffy's lawyer held a press conference and had possession of a binder containing emails from the PMO directing Duffy to take the money, play ball or be fired. RCMP affidavits allege that through evidence gained the PM's legal advisor, senior senators and others in the PMO knew about the deal. You have the PM himself not giving clear answers to direct questions, bactracking on his previous statement of no one but Wright and Duffy were involved.

No smoking gun as of yet, however the noose is tightening and there isn't any wigge room left. He's put himself to a story and it's full of holes.

Seems rather odd that Harper would initiate Duffy's suspension from the Senate without pay if he knew all this stuff, if its true, might come out. Why poke a bear that can bite back?

Do you think Harper's stupid? No, I don't think you do. The only logical answer is that most of this is fabrication by Duffy, his lawyer, and various anti-Harper/Conservatives.

[Cuz]

Originally Posted by Hesla

An easier change than Abolition or Elected senates would be mandatory posting of expenses on a website that anyone could access.

These senators got caught, but I bet there likely 50-100 more senators doing the same crap.

I think you're probably right, just to a lesser extent (moneywise). IMO, the only thing the PMO's office did wrong was (allegedly) try to cover up the expenses of Duffy. Frankly, they should have let the swindler out to dry.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Hesla

An easier change than Abolition or Elected senates would be mandatory posting of expenses on a website that anyone could access.

These senators got caught, but I bet there likely 50-100 more senators doing the same crap.

Probably quite true, to varying degrees. Its tough be honest when you have access to a lot of free money and there is relatively little fear of getting caught and the consequences, if you do get caught, are relatively minor. Its not like you will probably lose your job. (I believe only one Senator in the history of the Senate has actually been fired... and then when he was, he got to collect his Senate pension which was almost equal to his Senate salary).

[Cuz]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Probably quite true, to varying degrees. Its tough be honest when you have access to a lot of free money and there is relatively little fear of getting caught and the consequences, if you do get caught, are relatively minor. Its not like you will probably lose your job. (I believe only one Senator in the history of the Senate has actually been fired... and then when he was, he got to collect his Senate pension which was almost equal to his Senate salary).

If you're thinking of the same senator I am, it's the one who never showed up and was always on vacation (seemingly).

Ok, the one I was thinking of (siesta senator) was suspended until he retired: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/can-th...ator-1.1334768

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Cuz

The benefit of having the second chamber (at least in the Westminster model), is the senate is proportional representation rather than representation by population like the House of Commons. Now we do need to adjust our proportional representation numbers (western Canada is under represented while the Maritimes is over represented), but the principle remains the same.

Except the senate is only proportional by region rather than by province so Ontario and Quebec still dominate. But that could be reformed as well I suppose.

But any system in which one house can be controlled by 1 party and the other house by another leads to inefficiecy and vote buying. The elected dictator model we currently follow is far superior. In order to justify the senates transformation into a house of "sober second thought" you would need to point out problems we currently have. I think there is a misnomer that the status quo includes a westminster model senate. In doesn;t, the status quo includes a second house that rubber stamps everything accept pay cuts to the senate.

So the least impactful solution to our current form of governance is just to abolish the senate entirely. It maintains the governance structure we currently have and saves us a billion dollars a year or so.

[killer_carlson]

The free trade deal is a much bigger story to me. I really want to see a debate on the merits of the deal, and discussion of the details.

this senate mess..... fire them all.... abolish the senate ... move on to bigger issues which affect billions of dollars.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Perhaps all senate appointees should have to submit to a lie detector test before their appointment and on a yearly basis thereafter. How was Harper to know that some of the well respected people that he appointed were in fact liars and cheats.

As for the PM and his office colluding to cover this up... show me proof.

Haha, Mike Duffy is basically telling all now. There's your proof. Duffy just talked about a lengthy email chain and the fact that the PM was the one who told him to pay. He knew, and its a matter of time now.