Sidney Crosby Appreciation Thread

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

and Crosby was 19....out scoring a veteran in his prime by 6 pts.

I'm not dubbing Crosby as the greatest EVER, I'm saying that you cant quickly dismiss his accomplishments 1/3 of the way though his career. He still has 8-10 years of "Prime" hockey and is already near 700pts.

That's fine, let him achieve those achievements first then before anyone talks about him being better than so and so. My point was Gretzky, and later Lemieux, separated themselves so far ahead of their competition. Crosby, unfortunately maybe because of concussions, hasn't. The next point is the "they scored in the 80s whenever one scored 200 points against terrible goalies!!!!" Lemieux had one of his highest scoring seasons in a year that Broduer, Roy and Hasek were starters....

And I'm pretty sure Gretzky was doing alright in his younger years as well...

[Kaine]

It's cute that people keep bringing up the "don't compare, goalies back then were awful blah blah blah" without considering the fact that had Orr had even half of the medical advantages players have these days he could have been the best player of all time. Gretzky was beyond smart, his hockey IQ has never even come close to being equaled. His numbers with better athletics that today's players can achieve would have been even more laughably high. Mario? Can you honestly imagine him with the sort of conditioning today's players are required to posses? What's the record for 200+ point seasons because I'm sure he would have set that record at a couple decades.

Seriously the comparisons are silly, but lets not pretend that it doesn't work both ways when "dropping players into another era".

[Kswiss]

Gretzky
2 syllables
1 vowel
ends in "y"

Crosby
2 syllables
1 vowel
ends in "y"

Very comparable if you ask me

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

This is the reason why you cant even compare Crosby to Gretzky.

Gretzky-vision....(League avg sv% over career .866-.900)


Crosby-Vision (League avg sv% over career thus far .910-.915)


These players played in two very different NHL's....Dismissing Crosby's accomplishments as not comparable is a joke.

And Gretzky used a plastic lined toothpick called a Titan to shoot at these goalies as opposed to a carbon fibre stick capable of significantly faster and accurate shots.

Your average beer leaguer these days has a shot comparable to 1/2 the 1980 NHL thanks to the new sticks the players use.

[mikephoen]

Also don't forget that in the 80s and 90s headshots weren't just allowed, they were encouraged. Scott Stevens was celebrated as one of the greatest defensemen of all time, because he ended careers. Crosby's career would have been just a crappier version of what Lindros had if he played during that time period.

And then there was the shadow. Newer hockey fans probably don't even know what that is. For those of you under 25, a shadow was a player who was deployed in a man to man situation against the other teams superstar. The rules of the day allowed the shadow to effectively drape himself over the star player and not let him move around the ice. He was legally allowed to hook, hold and interfere with the star anywhere on the ice.

[memphusk]

Originally Posted by mikeecho

And Gretzky used a plastic lined toothpick called a Titan to shoot at these goalies as opposed to a carbon fibre stick capable of significantly faster and accurate shots.

Your average beer leaguer these days has a shot comparable to 1/2 the 1980 NHL thanks to the new sticks the players use.

Average beer leaguers drink beer at a more than average rate, not shoot pucks at average rate, that's why we're average beer leaguers.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Also don't forget that in the 80s and 90s headshots weren't just allowed, they were encouraged. Scott Stevens was celebrated as one of the greatest defensemen of all time, because he ended careers. Crosby's career would have been just a crappier version of what Lindros had if he played during that time period.

And then there was the shadow. Newer hockey fans probably don't even know what that is. For those of you under 25, a shadow was a player who was deployed in a man to man situation against the other teams superstar. The rules of the day allowed the shadow to effectively drape himself over the star player and not let him move around the ice. He was legally allowed to hook, hold and interfere with the star anywhere on the ice.

Most of those under 25 probably know about the shadow because there was an interview with Gretzky played repeatedly over the last week talking about the shadow.

Can we stop comparing Gretzky and Crosby in such literal terms? It's almost impossible to say who would've been better if they both played in the same era with the same technology. The point is, Crosby is the Gretzky of this generation.

Both men have pros and cons, advantages and disadvantages of playing in their era. It's useless to come up with 100 different reasons why one was better than the other. Gretzky is gone, Crosby is here. He represents an entirely different level that the game can currently be played at, just as Gretzky did years ago.

I mean hell, I don't even like Crosby (not that I really like Gretzky) but you can't deny that he has talent that is far and away the best in the NHL.

[jeffman]

I have a feeling that when they invent the time machine, this is what you guys would do first

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by strombad

The point is, Crosby is the Gretzky of this generation.
...

I mean hell, I don't even like Crosby (not that I really like Gretzky) but you can't deny that he has talent that is far and away the best in the NHL.

I'll disagree with that. Best player right now? Sure. Far and away? Nah, no where close to what Gretzky and Lemieux were.

Crosby's closer to players like Jagr, Bossy, Esposito or Lafleur today. Not in actual play style but in that they were great players, a head above their peers, but shouldn't be in contention for the best of all time. Nothing wrong with being compared to those players, but until he separates himself much further from the many other great players today I don't see the comparison to Gretzky. That 130 point pace he's had is a great accomplishment, but is it leagues ahead of the 110-120 points the next best player is going to get? Not really. 8 games in he's posting over 2 points per game, maybe this season is the year he really separates from the pack but until he accomplishes that feat in an 82 game season there's just no real comparison.

And it's all moot since Orr was the best.

[Matty81]

Turned into an interesting topic, my 2 cents... People tend to turn retired players into gods I've found, regardless of how good they were, they become twice as good once they are retired for 15 years. I watched Gretzky quite a bit on tv and in person growing up and he was the best offensive player I've ever seen play - his puckhandling and vision were better than anybody I've ever seen. He was also not an exceptional two way player, and his physical game was downright weak, he couldn't protect the puck along the boards to save his life. If he played in the modern, instigator penalty era where two way is expected he would be a grease spot and/or definately wouldn't get the ice time he got.

Also back in the 80s, you could load up a team, in the cap era a team like the 80s Oilers would never exist. Gretzky's supporting cast was amazing, and as others have said, it was much easier to score in that era, goals per game were way higher.

Crosby doesn't have Gretzky's vision, but he is a more complete player in every other way and has faced tougher competition, better coaching and a much more defensive brand of hockey all with a worse supporting cast.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Matty81

If he played in the modern, instigator penalty era where two way is expected he would be a grease spot and/or definately wouldn't get the ice time he got.

You know Gretzky played until 1999 right?

1998 he was 38, got 90 points in 82 games. Only Forsberg and Jagr outscored him and he was second team all-star. Again, long past his prime in the clutch and grab era and was still putting up decent (sure not 200+ points) but we're now talking about an in his prime Gretzky not getting ice-time in today's NHL?

Jeeze, we're about 2 years away from saying that Iginla would never have been able to play in today's NHL and his 50 goal season was due to those terrible players of the 2000s...

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by jeffman

I have a feeling that when they invent the time machine, this is what you guys would do first

No way. I'd go back and say yes to that threesome I said no to 13 years ago

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

No way. I'd go back and say yes to that threesome I said no to 13 years ago

The quality of sex 13 years ago was terrible, you probably wouldn't even be able to get it up back then. Today's girls are just so much better.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

I'll disagree with that. Best player right now? Sure. Far and away? Nah, no where close to what Gretzky and Lemieux were.

Crosby's closer to players like Jagr, Bossy, Esposito or Lafleur today. Not in actual play style but in that they were great players, a head above their peers, but shouldn't be in contention for the best of all time. Nothing wrong with being compared to those players, but until he separates himself much further from the many other great players today I don't see the comparison to Gretzky. That 130 point pace he's had is a great accomplishment, but is it leagues ahead of the 110-120 points the next best player is going to get? Not really. 8 games in he's posting over 2 points per game, maybe this season is the year he really separates from the pack but until he accomplishes that feat in an 82 game season there's just no real comparison.

And it's all moot since Orr was the best.

So, you're saying that despite Crosby being better than everyone playing the game today, and putting up points in a more consistent fashion than any other player, he can't be considered at THAT level because the other players in the league at the level below him aren't as bad as the guys in the 80's?

Riiiiight.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by strombad

So, you're saying that despite Crosby being better than everyone playing the game today, and putting up points in a more consistent fashion than any other player, he can't be considered at THAT level because the other players in the league at the level below him aren't as bad as the guys in the 80's?

Riiiiight.

I'm saying, like Jagr in the lat 1990s when he won 5 Art Ross trophies, Crosby is the best player of the game. However, that doesn't make him the best player of all time. Are you suggesting until Crosby came along Jagr was the best player of all time? If not, why?

If we're saying that the overall talent continues to get better (ignoring expansion as well...) then the late 1990s were better than the early 1990s and 1980s and Jagr was best player in a tougher era. Yet no one picks him over Gretzky and Lemieux...

You can twist my words all you want, but I feel like your ignoring some key points in my post because I simply wont say Crosby is better than Gretzky (or at that level).

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

I'm saying, like Jagr in the lat 1990s when he won 5 Art Ross trophies, Crosby is the best player of the game. However, that doesn't make him the best player of all time. Are you suggesting until Crosby came along Jagr was the best player of all time? If not, why?

If we're saying that the overall talent continues to get better (ignoring expansion as well...) then the late 1990s were better than the early 1990s and 1980s and Jagr was best player in a tougher era. Yet no one picks him over Gretzky and Lemieux...

You can twist my words all you want, but I feel like your ignoring some key points in my post because I simply wont say Crosby is better than Gretzky (or at that level).

Because I'm not saying Crosby is better than Gretzky, so who the hell are you trying to argue with?

My very point was that they aren't comparable, and Crosby, LIKE Gretzky, is the best player of this generation by far.

Go back, read, and chill.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by strombad

Because I'm not saying Crosby is better than Gretzky, so who the hell are you trying to argue with?

My very point was that they aren't comparable, and Crosby, LIKE Gretzky, is the best player of this generation by far.

Go back, read, and chill.

They aren't comparable...but Crosby is this generations Gretzky?

This generation doesn't have a Gretzky or Lemieux because no one comes close to how far ahead they dominated their peers. Crosby's great, I listed some very very good players (some that were their respective best players for stretches) but Crosby has a long ways to go before we mention him in comparison to the best players of all time. If you want to say Crosby is the best player of this generation you can do it without talking about Gretzky, but once you bring him up the comparison, whether you mean to or not, is made.

[driveway]

Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, Crosby... they're good and all, but they ain't no Newsy Lalonde: 1.26 goals per game, staggering.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

They aren't comparable...but Crosby is this generations Gretzky?

This generation doesn't have a Gretzky or Lemieux because no one comes close to how far ahead they dominated their peers. Crosby's great, I listed some very very good players (some that were their respective best players for stretches) but Crosby has a long ways to go before we mention him in comparison to the best players of all time. If you want to say Crosby is the best player of this generation you can do it without talking about Gretzky, but once you bring him up the comparison, whether you mean to or not, is made.

Sorry dad.

Seriously man, have at your argument, it's not me you're arguing with. There's no way I'm going to say this guy is better, or that guy is better. They played different games in different eras with a hundred different intangibles. All I'm saying is that, like Gretzky, Sidney is the face of hockey, he's the biggest thing the NHL has seen since Gretzky, and on MORE than a hockey level, he is absolutely this generation's Gretzky.

You're getting all bothered by semantics. Relax.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by strombad

Sorry dad.

Seriously man, have at your argument, it's not me you're arguing with. There's no way I'm going to say this guy is better, or that guy is better. They played different games in different eras with a hundred different intangibles. All I'm saying is that, like Gretzky, Sidney is the face of hockey, he's the biggest thing the NHL has seen since Gretzky, and on MORE than a hockey level, he is absolutely this generation's Gretzky.

You're getting all bothered by semantics. Relax.

All I've done is disagreed with your argument, don't see the need for the unnecessary quips.

You've made some pretty bold statements, many people will agree with you, many will not. But if you don't want to open yourself up for discussion about it, don't post it on a discussion board.

You've said Crosby is this generations Gretzky, I've said he isn't (because I feel no one is). I've posted my reasons for disagreeing. If you want to extend it to off the ice now, I'll again heavily disagree with that as well. Gretzky brought the NHL to places it's never been, Crosby kept hockey in Pittsburgh (no small feat) but until he's got a cartoon version of himself, he's no Gretzky.