Sidney Crosby Appreciation Thread

[moon]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Gretzky was head and shoulders above everyone else (as shown by the number of awards and honors that he garnered) that he played with and against (with the exception of Lemieux for a couple of years). You can't say the same for Crosby, right now.

Yes you can.

Crosby is head and shoulders better than every other guy in the league right now. There is nobody close to him. The only thing that has held him back a bit was the concussion.

Originally Posted by カナダ人です

For how many years has Crosby been the best player in the world?

Honest question.

I would say he has been the best in the world since he came into the league but the no doubt, clear cut, head and shoulders above everyone else probably since 2007.

[RyZ]

Originally Posted by codynw

Why should he have won the Hart? He was hurt and the team still managed to win most of their games. There is a trophy for "most outstanding player", which he won. MVP should go to a player that is the main reason their team wins.

In theory, maybe, but that is not who it goes to most of the time. And Ovechkin took a large chunk of the season off last year as well.

[RyZ]

Originally Posted by カナダ人です

For how many years has Crosby been the best player in the world?

Honest question.

I would say since his 2nd season in the league.

[Puppet Guy]

Crosby made people proud to say they're from Cole Harbour. That in itself is a huge accomplishment.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Rerun
M Lemieux (playing with Gretzky in the '87 Canada Cup made him into the player he was)

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

haha what?

Unlike many people on here I saw Gretzky and Lemieux play together in the '87 Canada Cup. Pre Canada Cup, Lemieux didn't have much of a work ethic. He'd take nights off. When he played with Gretzky, and saw how hard he worked at the game (as well as Messier) it changed him. He has even acknowledged this.

Early in his career Lemieux languished with the lowly Pittsburgh Penguins. The team seemed to just accept defeat many nights. Without great leadership, it looked like Mario might never learn what it would take to harness his potential, and until that happened the Penguins would never develop into a great team. And Mario, despite his wondrous natural abilities only matched by perhaps Bobby Orr, might never have developed into the great player he became.

"That whole tournament turned my career around. I saw what it took to win, to be a championship team. Seeing how talented players who had won the Cup before - guys like Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier and Paul Coffey - work so hard every day was a true learning experience. Playing with such great players for five or six weeks also gave me a lot of confidence, and my career took off. "

http://internationalhockeylegends.bl...o-lemieux.html

[Heavy Jack]

I want to just say that he is THE player of the current generation. Undeniably. Even after many serious injuries including head injuries he continues to play amazing hockey. Crosby/Malkin is a force for a long time to come and I think its great to see!

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Super Nintendo Chalmers

A post-Hodgkins, broken down Mario managed 91 points in 67 games in 02-03, at the height of clutch and grab hockey. If he couldn't crack 200 points in his prime in the 80's, I wouldn't be so quick with the Crosby hypotheticals.

And a 37 year old worn out Gretzky was able to put up 90 points in 82 games. Forsberg and Jagr being the only players to outscore him with 102 and 91 points. We've seen a well out of his prime play against Yzerman, Sakic, Selanne, Jagr, etc. We've seen players like Selanne excel (obviously not touching his rookie season) into their 40s and Ray Whitney especially who had his second best season total as a 39 year old. Whitney in his prime was an after thought (being generous) compared to an aging Gretzky, then as he approached 40 he's in the top 10 for scoring while playing on a super defensive team that he lead in point production by a fair margin. There can't be such a significant talent increase between the early 1990s and the 2010s simply because of players like Whitney who have shown that even after slowing down they can still produce at high level.

So the talent level isn't significant higher, it's higher but not to the point that people like to make it out to be. So it's down to the difference in point production in the 1980s and after.

If the 1980s were such high scoring eras to the point where so-and-so could score 200 points easily if he was teleported back, why was the highest non-Gretzky or Lemieux total 155 by Yzerman in 1989? Lemeiux had a better season in the dead puck era when he scored 161 points...in 70 games. Lemieux after 30 was able to produce at over a 2 points per game pace that would be pro-rated to 189 points in 1996. That was Sakic's absolute best season (point wise) when he put up 120 points in 82 games. So if in his prime Sakic is being blown out of the water by an over 30 Lemieux, why do we think one of the best players of the 2000s in Sakic would be putting up anything like Lemieux/Gretzky type number in the 1980s? It's pretty absurd. Now how much better is Crosby than Sakic? Sakic never actually won the Art Ross (thanks to Jagr and Lemieux) but was often in contention, Crosby's gotten to the point where he's the favourite to win it if he's healthy, much like Jagr - a player that we know was a step below Lemieux/Gretzky/Orr.

I would say it's fair to put Crosby in that next level tier, wouldn't take much issue to those who say that Crosby would break Yzmeran's 155 points in the 1980s but those that talks about him "scoring 100 goals easy etc. etc." I think are pretty absurd and clouded by judgement.

[sticktrick]

Sorry man, you have a good point about athletes representing the sport, but the point seems to have gone off topic. Crosby's name is the label of hockey for this day in age...ever since he entered the league. Just like it was for Gretzky in the previous era. You don't even have to watch that much television or hockey and one will know who is being advertised as the biggest advocate and ambassador for the sport. The commercials alone give it away.

Usain Bolt? You may as well thrown in the American Swimmer's name that broke all the records a few years back. He's so significant that I can't even remember right now. His name will pop up again when the Summer Olympics come back in swing again.

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

Crosby is nowhere close period

Muhammad Ali, Michael Jordan,Usain Bolt, Pele... I don't see Crosby's name carrying the same weight as these, if his name isn't being compared to these athletes but rather to other hockey players then he is no where close to the level Gretzky achieved

There's good and there's great and we hand out the label of great way to easily

[strombad]

Originally Posted by sticktrick

Sorry man, you have a good point about athletes representing the sport, but the point seems to have gone off topic. Crosby's name is the label of hockey for this day in age...ever since he entered the league. Just like it was for Gretzky in the previous era. You don't even have to watch that much television or hockey and one will know who is being advertised as the biggest advocate and ambassador for the sport. The commercials alone give it away.

Usain Bolt? You may as well thrown in the American Swimmer's name that broke all the records a few years back. He's so significant that I can't even remember right now. His name will pop up again when the Summer Olympics come back in swing again.

While you are right about Crosby, he's certainly the face of hockey, you should also note that Bolt is one of the biggest and greatest athletes of this generation, at the same level as the other men mentioned. He wasn't just "thrown in" like you think Michael Phelps (that swimmer nobody remembers) should've been.

But, to avoid this turning into a debate about Usain Bolt:
I think it boils down to this. Crosby is the greatest player playing right now. He arguably will be until he retires, which, as long as injuries don't eventually derail his career, should be a long long time from now. There are things he does that aren't quite as good as other players, but every element of his game would be ranked amongst the top ten in the league. That's more than Gretzky could say. Gretzky could put up points like a machine, but Crosby does everything. He's not better than Gretzky, but he's a more complete player, and he's the most complete player at the highest skill level this league has ever seen.

Last season he put up 56 points in 36 games, that's 1.56 PPG, which, prorated over 82 games, would've been 128 points.

This season he has already put up 17 points in 8 games, 2.13 PPG, which if he keeps pace would be good for 175 points.

Will he keep it up? Maybe not. But he is the ONLY player in the league that without threat of injury, has the immeasurable talent and consistency to put up numbers like that.

I still think Ovechkin is the best scoring threat in the game, he's a dangerous player. Toews is the best defensive-minded centreman the game has seen in a while. Crosby? He's the best player. When he's around, plays develop. The guy plays with average linemates and still puts up incredible numbers. He is most certainly the Gretzky of this generation. Is he Gretzky? No. But he's the closest thing we've got. He's the best player of this generation by far and he's the face of hockey in general. That counts enough for me.

[BurningSteel]

Is he not "fricken" worthy?

[powderjunkie]

He's still young - it remains to be seen whether he will rack up more cups and accomplishments, or if he is one more hit away from becoming a "what-if" like Lemieux/Lindros (not saying Lindros is in this conversation, but he is a prime example of domination until mid-late 20's).

Gretzky is undeniable in terms of peak and longevity.

Orr/Lemieux are right there in peak, but don't have longevity.

As has been said, it's hard to argue at present because things are so different. Having only 1 cup is a bit of a detractor for me, but if he can get 2 more before he is 30 then could be in the convo with Orr/Lem.


It's interesting to look at Lebron vs. Jordan. 3 years ago you would have said that Lebron was a helluva player, but not in the conversation. Now, he is 20% better than the next best player in the league, and looks to be unstoppable for the next few years. If Crosby can get it together in the playoffs, it could be the same thing.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Wow I didn't think this thread was going to get into a battle of Crosby vs. Legends.

Honestly I just think he is an amazing talent and is a pleasure to watch play.

He is easily the best player in the game, and his dedication and commitment to keep improving and getting better is admirable and that's why I like the guy.

[BurningSteel]

Do you guys really think he is better than Glencross??

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

This is the reason why you cant even compare Crosby to Gretzky.

Gretzky-vision....(League avg sv% over career .866-.900)


Crosby-Vision (League avg sv% over career thus far .910-.915)


These players played in two very different NHL's....Dismissing Crosby's accomplishments as not comparable is a joke.

[vilzeh]

^This, 1000x this.

+ Goalies actually go on knees with those pads, they don't stand and have 70% of the net exposed.

[Yoho]

Because Gretzky had so many of the same advantages and advances in technology Crosby had back in his day to accomplish all those stats. Don't hate..

Gretzky=Best ever

Stop trying to make excuses

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by vilzeh

^This, 1000x this.

+ Goalies actually go on knees with those pads, they don't stand and have 70% of the net exposed.

Why then weren't there more scorers of Gretzky's ilk? People love to bring up the goalies and the systems and the high scoring of the 80s. Problem is, behind Gretzky (and later Lemieux) there was...Bernie Nicholls?

There's 5 players to ever break 150 points, Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Esposito and Nicholls. Esposito did it in the early 1970s, long before the high scoring 80s era showed up. Yzerman had a great season in 1989, the same season Nicholls broke it as well. And let's not overlook the fact that Nicholls' highest scoring season was 100 points until Gretzky was traded and he sky rocketed from 78 points the previous season to 150 points with Gretzky.

1982 Gretzky had 215 points, Bossy with 147 points took second in the "race."

1983 Gretzky had 196 points, Stastny had 124 good enough for second place.
19

1984 Gretzky had 204 points, Coffey (his teammate) had 126 points to place second.

1985 Gretzky had 208 points, Kurri (his teammate) had 135 points to place second.

1986 Gretzky had 215 points, Lemieux 141, and his teammates Coffey and Kurri in the 130s with Bossy and 120 rounding out the top 5 that year.

The race wasn't even close for the scoring titles. It wasn't like Gretzky was narrowly beating the second best player by a couple points, he was slaughtering some of the best players in the world at the time by over 100 points a season. The one year Crosby won the Art Ross he did it by 6 points over Thornton...

And then there's Mario Lemieux. 160 points in 70 games after coming back from Hodgkin's in 1996. What's the excuse for that? The Devil's had already won their first cup with Brodeur and their defensive system, the scoring has been going down, are we just pretending that the 1980s extended to 1996 now? Otherwise how could one of Lemieux's best seasons (189 points pro-reated) come in the dead puck era if his scoring was a product of the 80s? Something doesn't add up for me.

Crosby's the best player in the world today, I don't buy that he's the best player of all time.

[H2SO4(aq)]

There are about 8-10 guys ever who have scored 150 points. I think Crosby has a legitimate shot at it. he's extremely special and will be a top 5 all time player when he retires.

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

The race wasn't even close for the scoring titles. It wasn't like Gretzky was narrowly beating the second best player by a couple points, he was slaughtering some of the best players in the world at the time by over 100 points a season. The one year Crosby won the Art Ross he did it by 6 points over Thornton...

and Crosby was 19....out scoring a veteran in his prime by 6 pts.

I'm not dubbing Crosby as the greatest EVER, I'm saying that you cant quickly dismiss his accomplishments 1/3 of the way though his career. He still has 8-10 years of "Prime" hockey and is already near 700pts.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

and Crosby was 19....out scoring a veteran in his prime by 6 pts.

If we are going down the age thing

"Gretzky also represented Canada internationally for the first time in January 1978 at the World Junior Championship in Quebec City. As a 16-year-old, he led the whole tournament in scoring and was named the top center. Ironically, the coaching staff invited him to the team's training camp only because he was leading the league in scoring; they thought he was otherwise too small to even make the team."

http://www.gretzky.com/hockey/bio.php