Fire on Canadian Sub, Rescue Underway

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Some more fodder for those who say the Canadian Armed Forces are chronically underfunded...

"A rescue effort is underway off of the west coast of Ireland after a Canadian military submarine with 56 people on board issued a distress call Tuesday.

Military officials in Halifax said a fire broke out on HMCS Chicoutimi about 425 kilometres west of Ireland, but has since been extinguished."

Lemon Laws Anyone?

HMCS Chicoutimi was officially turned over to the Canadian Navy on Oct 1 from the Royal Navy. 5 days later it looks like fire has broken out and we now need a tug back to port. Unbelievable. I really hope we're not paying a dime for these yet.... I was a proponent of this deal, but can't believe the inept systems integration and modernization work that have gone into these boats.

Maybe the Brits have a 30 day money back policy, like Saturn or something....

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by I-Hate-Hulse@Oct 5 2004, 04:28 PM
Some more fodder for those who say the Canadian Armed Forces are chronically underfunded...

"A rescue effort is underway off of the west coast of Ireland after a Canadian military submarine with 56 people on board issued a distress call Tuesday.

Military officials in Halifax said a fire broke out on HMCS Chicoutimi about 425 kilometres west of Ireland, but has since been extinguished."

Lemon Laws Anyone?

HMCS Chicoutimi was officially turned over to the Canadian Navy on Oct 1 from the Royal Navy. 5 days later it looks like fire has broken out and we now need a tug back to port. Unbelievable. I really hope we're not paying a dime for these yet.... I was a proponent of this deal, but can't believe the inept systems integration and modernization work that have gone into these boats.

Maybe the Brits have a 30 day money back policy, like Saturn or something....

I think we traded for them in exchange for rent for British troops using Suffield and Wainwright and what not and so forth.

So, you could say we sacrificed cash we might have had otherwise.

The Mulroney government wanted to buy Los Angeles class nuclear attack submarines from America so we could patrol underneath the Arctic ice.

Cowperson

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Here is a great link for a good read on the Victoria / Upholder submarines. Covers a lot of detail from the politics, payment plan, and specifications of the boats themselves.

I had known about the possibility of an AIP system that would permit under ice operations. Didn't know it was from Ballard and a fuel cell though. Unfortunately, since we can't seem to even make it across blue water ocean, perhaps going under Arctic ice is a little ambitious right now... 6 kts only though... better hope a Russian Akula doesn't steamroller you at 35 kts.

The article's quite good, but fails to take into consideration the possibilty of the boats being lemons, like they appear to be now... Then again, I seem to remember reading an article where UK Thales techncians claim that Canadian Navy submariners had no clue what they were doing and the root cause of all these problems.

Great read on the Subs

[CaptainCrunch]

These Submarines were a nightmare purchase by the inept department of national defense under Eggleton. He was thrilled by the problems due to the fact that his twisted logic told him that he would save money on the defense budget since these things weren't safe for sea duty and would spend most of thier time moored to docks.

Issues with the submarines so far

1) Substandard welding on the outerhull which caused severe leakage at depth greater than 65 feet

2) The British only had these subs in service for four years due to the fact that the torpedo tube housing was misaligned causing massive leakage. The brit solution was to seal up the torpedo tubes and not use them. this is pretty brilliant considering that the only weapons that the Upholders have at thier disposal are . . . wait for it . . . . Torpedo's

3) One of the subs had a bent frame which means that it was in a collision. The fact that we took possession of this sub means its now our problem. A bent frame directly impacts the noise worthyness of these boats, it also greatly reduces the expected crush depth.

4) During the sea trials of the HMS Ursula, the outer doors of a torpedo tube could not be closed at depth after firing. the seals released and the sub took on 1500 litres of water forcing the captain to perform and emergency surface. Rumor has it that the Canadian crew was pretty shaken up by that and perfered to mutiney as oppossed to go back to sea in this submarine. REmember that the last part was a rumor.

Now the Canadian Government is trying to hide the problem. The British Military has gone on record stating that the Canadian Submariners are incompetent and indecisive.

I call B.S. I know a few of the Naval officers and they aren't incompetent. The incompetents falls firmly on Art Eggleton and the current minister of defense for trying to save money as oppossed to looking at safety.

When I said that these idiots should be charged with treason in another thread, I was serious about that. These guys are going to eventually fill body bags at the expense of saving dollars that are going to Quebec Ad agencies and billion dollar gun registries. I'm disgusted by the whole thing.

Now we have a fire on a sub.

Yes Brian Mulrooney looked at the LA Class 688i submarine, but under the conditions of our non nuclear proliferation position, we couldn't buy them.

However the Australianss, Germans, Dutch, French and Swedish navies make better diesel electric and air hybrid subs than the Brits do, and thats where our money should have gone.

Hell the russians still have 200 Kilo Class subs available for export, we could have made a deal with them.

What a joke

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by I-Hate-Hulse@Oct 5 2004, 05:17 PM
Here is a great link for a good read on the Victoria / Upholder submarines. Covers a lot of detail from the politics, payment plan, and specifications of the boats themselves.

I had known about the possibility of an AIP system that would permit under ice operations. Didn't know it was from Ballard and a fuel cell though. Unfortunately, since we can't seem to even make it across blue water ocean, perhaps going under Arctic ice is a little ambitious right now... 6 kts only though... better hope a Russian Akula doesn't steamroller you at 35 kts.

The article's quite good, but fails to take into consideration the possibilty of the boats being lemons, like they appear to be now... Then again, I seem to remember reading an article where UK Thales techncians claim that Canadian Navy submariners had no clue what they were doing and the root cause of all these problems.

Great read on the Subs

Its unlikely that you would ever see a Akula going at 35 knots, I would be able to hear them with a glass up against my ear with my head underwater. There also aren't a lot of them at sea anymore

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@Oct 5 2004, 12:31 PM
Its unlikely that you would ever see a Akula going at 35 knots, I would be able to hear them with a glass up against my ear with my head underwater. There also aren't a lot of them at sea anymore

Even a USN SSN would have problems running at 35 kts without sounding like a burglar with bells on. Still, I'd rather be the the skipper of the Akula with 35 kts to play with in outrunning/maneuvering a torpedo than the skipper of HMCS Corner Brook with 6....

You're right, the Russians don't have as many as they used to, but India and China are rumored to have be on the export list. Once they get a few, count on seeing lots of indigenous variants, likely better than the Russian ones.

Combine a SSN with a supercavitating 'Shkval" torpedo at 200+ knots... bye bye US Carrier Battle Group. Russia kindly sold these to the Chinese.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by I-Hate-Hulse+Oct 5 2004, 07:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (I-Hate-Hulse @ Oct 5 2004, 07:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaptainCrunch@Oct 5 2004, 12:31 PM
Its unlikely that you would ever see a Akula going at 35 knots, I would be able to hear them with a glass up against my ear with my head underwater. There also aren't a lot of them at sea anymore

Even a USN SSN would have problems running at 35 kts without sounding like a burglar with bells on. Still, I'd rather be the the skipper of the Akula with 35 kts to play with in outrunning/maneuvering a torpedo than the skipper of HMCS Corner Brook with 6....

You're right, the Russians don't have as many as they used to, but India and China are rumored to have be on the export list. Once they get a few, count on seeing lots of indigenous variants, likely better than the Russian ones.

Combine a SSN with a supercavitating 'Shkval" torpedo at 200+ knots... bye bye US Carrier Battle Group. Russia kindly sold these to the Chinese. [/b][/quote]
The Submarine would have to get inside of the carrier group just to fire that thing. Lets say anywhere from 7500 to 9000 yards. you also have to remember that a trailed nixie is still effective against that torpedo. If an Akula which is pretty equivalent to a 637 class Sturgeon, with equivalent sonar and quieting can slip inside of a carrier exclusion zone then it deserves to sink a carrier.

the American's and the British are probably the pre-emitive nations when it comes to sub hunting, I just don't see the advantage of a 200 mile an hour torpedo. you have to be able to targe and fire it for it to be effective.

Its also doubtful that something with a conventional warhead would do much damage to a carrier unless it was a screws on hit which would blow the bearings.

[Tron_fdc]

Rumor has it that the Canadian crew was pretty shaken up by that and perfered to mutiney as oppossed to go back to sea in this submarine. REmember that the last part was a rumor.

Substandard welding on the outerhull which caused severe leakage at depth greater than 65 feet

2) The British only had these subs in service for four years due to the fact that the torpedo tube housing was misaligned causing massive leakage. The brit solution was to seal up the torpedo tubes and not use them. this is pretty brilliant considering that the only weapons that the Upholders have at thier disposal are . . . wait for it . . . . Torpedo's

So let me get this straight.....we just bought a bunch of subs that:
-can't dive
-can't shoot
-are manned by a crew so suspicious of its capabilities they would rather be mutineers
-hardly run, and when they do would barely outrace a 10 man olympic rowing team?

Sweeeeeet. So where is Eggleton these days? Isn't he the foreign minister of Rotunda or something?

[CaramonLS]

Alright this is going to have to be said in this thread to make it an offical CDN Military thread... You have been warned.


"WE HAVE SUBS???"

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Oct 5 2004, 07:14 PM
Alright this is going to have to be said in this thread to make it an offical CDN Military thread... You have been warned.


"WE HAVE SUBS???"

Yup 4 upholder subs renamed Victoria classed to replace our 60's status oberon subs.

They have some good features. They're basically a SSN (nuc boat) in frame and technology that uses a diesel electric engine and batteries for power which demands snorkling.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch+Oct 5 2004, 07:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaptainCrunch @ Oct 5 2004, 07:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaramonLS@Oct 5 2004, 07:14 PM
Alright this is going to have to be said in this thread to make it an offical CDN Military thread... You have been warned.


"WE HAVE SUBS???"

Yup 4 upholder subs renamed Victoria classed to replace our 60's status oberon subs.

They have some good features. They're basically a SSN (nuc boat) in frame and technology that uses a diesel electric engine and batteries for power which demands snorkling. [/b][/quote]
Sounds like a slight upgrade on a German U-Boat.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally posted by CaramonLS+Oct 5 2004, 07:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaramonLS @ Oct 5 2004, 07:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Yup 4 upholder subs renamed Victoria classed to replace our 60's status oberon subs.

They have some good features. They're basically a SSN (nuc boat) in frame and technology that uses a diesel electric engine and batteries for power which demands snorkling.

Sounds like a slight upgrade on a German U-Boat. [/b][/quote]
Demands snorkling? Excuse the ignorance on military terminology, but that sounds like an upgrade from an 8 yr old with a spear gun, not much else.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by CaramonLS+Oct 5 2004, 07:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaramonLS @ Oct 5 2004, 07:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Yup 4 upholder subs renamed Victoria classed to replace our 60's status oberon subs.

They have some good features. They're basically a SSN (nuc boat) in frame and technology that uses a diesel electric engine and batteries for power which demands snorkling.

Sounds like a slight upgrade on a German U-Boat. [/b][/quote]
which U-boats are you talking about the WW II concept or thier more modern ventures. The Upholder was a radical departure from most modern diesel subs due to it tear dropped dynamic shape which gives it better speed, and better noise reduction. As oppossed to most diesel subs which still have a boat shaped blunt hull that hurts its speed and quieting. However diesel subs are not made to be especially fast. they are made to be very quiet. Which they are.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by plett22+Oct 5 2004, 07:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (plett22 @ Oct 5 2004, 07:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Sounds like a slight upgrade on a German U-Boat.

Demands snorkling? Excuse the ignorance on military terminology, but that sounds like an upgrade from an 8 yr old with a spear gun, not much else. [/b][/quote]
Snorkling means that the sub has to approach the surface and take on air to recharge its battery systems. Usually it doesn't have to come out of the water to do this but uses a mask.

Some of the new german and other diesel subs carry a supply of liquid oxygen that they use to replensih thier batteries under water.

You also have to realize that diesel electric engines give off fumes and require oxygen to run, and therefore you have to clean your airsupply.

the advantage of a nuke boat is you don't need to do that. The reactor charges the batteries, which aren't really used that much, and the air supply is scrubbed by an advanced filtering system. Which explains why a nuke sub can stay submerged and efficent almost forever. the only thing that forces it to come to the surface is a food requirement.

the amount of time that a diesel boat can stay submerged in a high operational tempo is measured in hours, days tops.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

You don't think a 500lb conventional warhead making a hole at the waterline or below it won't gravely wound a warship? The vaunted Harpoon missile carries a warhead of similar weight. Lets not forget what speedboat loaded with TNT will do to a USN Destroyer named the USS Cole.

As for the Nixie and other countermeasures, at 200 some knots you've got a lot less time to make them work. I guess it'll depend on the actual guidance mechanism for the torpedo which is still classified and grey. At 200 kts, depending on your range and target speed it could be a bit more of a point and shoot exercise.

You're right though, the enemy skipper would still have to get inside the perimeter, although I'm sure it happens once in a while, and would be easier in a littoral low level combat siutation like the Gulf right now. Better hope old Bin doesn't get his hands on these.

Some interesting scuttlebutt on this torpedo though...

"On April 5, 2000, an American businessman, Edmond Pope, and a Russian colleague were arrested by the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) in Moscow. The men were charged with stealing scientific secrets -- specifically information on the Shkval torpedo. Pope, a retired U.S. Navy captain who spent the majority of his career working in naval intelligence, was then the head of a private security firm. Two weeks after the arrest, the FSB claimed that Pope was seeking plans for the high-speed underwater missile. The retired navy officer was detained during informal contact with one of the Russian scientists who helped to create the torpedo.

Pope spent eight months in the Russian Lefortovo prison awaiting trial. He was convicted of espionage and sentenced to 20 years. On Dec. 14, 2000, Russian President Vladimir Putin pardoned Pope on humanitarian grounds; the American has been suffering from bone cancer.

Pope was in Russia as a businessman to purchase Russian technology when he apparently fell prey to a Canadian intelligence operation intent on purchasing the Shkval torpedoes, according to U.S. intelligence sources. "

Purely conjecture but still interesting....

[Looger]

god how i wish we had black-ops, secret-agenda stuff going!

we could start brainwashing american mental patients, just on a pure revenge basis.

likely get us a little respect at the bargaining table.

[Tron_fdc]

Pope was in Russia as a businessman to purchase Russian technology when he apparently fell prey to a Canadian intelligence operation intent on purchasing the Shkval torpedoes, according to U.S. intelligence sources. "

Well, this is an easy one. Obviously the Americans are using us as a scapegoat! Blame Canada!!

[CaptainCrunch]

You don't think a 500lb conventional warhead making a hole at the waterline or below it won't gravely wound a warship? The vaunted Harpoon missile carries a warhead of similar weight. Lets not forget what speedboat loaded with TNT will do to a USN Destroyer named the USS Cole.

The armoured belts on a carrier are 3 to 4 times the width of a thin hull like a destroyer like the cole which can be hulled by a torpedo. Remember when your talking about a warhead on a torpedo your talking about a 1200 pounds of TNT explosion, and not a shaped charge. Like I said its unlikely that a single torpedo charge would do critical damage to a carrier, just like a harpoon hit on the deck would suspend flight operations but it wouldn't do grievous damage.

Its pretty much accepted that the only way to really put a carrier out of business is to nuke it, and like I mentioned before you have to get through and obscene abount of defenses in order to even get your shot off.

As for the Nixie and other countermeasures, at 200 some knots you've got a lot less time to make them work. I guess it'll depend on the actual guidance mechanism for the torpedo which is still classified and grey. At 200 kts, depending on your range and target speed it could be a bit more of a point and shoot exercise.

The first thing a U.S. Navy Ship does when it goes to general quarters is stream nixies and activate thier masker systems. I have my doubts that a Akula class submarine would have good odds of penetrating a alert battle group, get by the screening submarines, approach to within 7500 years of a carrier, open the outer doors and fire. But thats just me
Some interesting scuttlebutt on this torpedo though...

"On April 5, 2000, an American businessman, Edmond Pope, and a Russian colleague were arrested by the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) in Moscow. The men were charged with stealing scientific secrets -- specifically information on the Shkval torpedo. Pope, a retired U.S. Navy captain who spent the majority of his career working in naval intelligence, was then the head of a private security firm. Two weeks after the arrest, the FSB claimed that Pope was seeking plans for the high-speed underwater missile. The retired navy officer was detained during informal contact with one of the Russian scientists who helped to create the torpedo.

Pope spent eight months in the Russian Lefortovo prison awaiting trial. He was convicted of espionage and sentenced to 20 years. On Dec. 14, 2000, Russian President Vladimir Putin pardoned Pope on humanitarian grounds; the American has been suffering from bone cancer.

Pope was in Russia as a businessman to purchase Russian technology when he apparently fell prey to a Canadian intelligence operation intent on purchasing the Shkval torpedoes, according to U.S. intelligence sources. "

Purely conjecture but still interesting....

[Tron_fdc]

Yes Brian Mulrooney looked at the LA Class 688i submarine, but under the conditions of our non nuclear proliferation position, we couldn't buy them.

Anyone care to expand on this? Have we signed a "No Nuke" treaty that I'm not aware of? Or was it just government policy at the time?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by plett22@Oct 5 2004, 08:09 PM

Anyone care to expand on this? Have we signed a "No Nuke" treaty that I'm not aware of? Or was it just government policy at the time?

Its more of a positional stance after we got rid of our starfighter mounted nuclear tipped air to air missiles, we basically stated to the world that we were a nuke free country on the military side, and that includes submarines.

There is still that persistant rumor that we have a stockpile of the damn things up at CFB alert with our alien bodies