You're so out to lunch I don't even know where to start. You think cause you rattled off some VST's you have credibility? I really didn't want to keep this going cause it's pointless and I'm getting genuinely frustrated which is stupid but you are completely clueless in terms of what it takes to make good EDM music.
Also your main argument in that post is backwards in my opinion. Teach an EDM producer the basics of an instrument and they will probably master it a lot quicker than a "musician" would master EDM production. When you make EDM you have to know your notes, your chords, your scales, different techniques like vibrato and portamento, you have to know what an arpeggio is, what a harmonic is. You need understand music just like you would playing any other instrument. It would just be a matter of learning how to physically play the instrument.
What differs and what makes your argument fall apart is most musicians focus on one or two instruments when they write music while an EDM musician has to understand how every instrument, every synth, every effect, every aspect of production works and how they work together. You don't have the luxury of being able to strum a guitar, sing a little tune and than have someone else (i.e. a music producer) put it all together for you. Take your hypothetical average competent guitarist, put him in front of a mixing board, compressor or an equalizer and most of them will probably be clueless. Only seasoned musicians with plenty of studio time would have any clue what they are doing. Well here's a fun fact for you...
You can't be successful in EDM without mastering that aspect of music.
It's not an option. So while Mr. EDM producer has to learn how to physically play an instrument, Mr. Guitarist has to not only learn how to use a VST, he also has to learn every aspect of music production. Now I'm being nice and I'm assuming we're letting Mr. Guitarist off the hook and letting him use preset sounds. Sound design is a whole other aspect that quality EDM producers need to understand as well which is an instrument in itself. I'd love to see Mr. Guitarist handle something like this:
Now a days most EDM producers don't have analog synths like that but the premise of sound design is still the same. You just don't have to physically turn the knobs and route your patches. Oh and in case you don't know what "sound design" means, it's creating the actual sound. So before you can even play a note, you have to figure out how to make a sound.
But yeah. Playing the solo to sweet child o' mine should really garner more respect.
Last edited by polak; 10-05-2013 at 05:04 PM.
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Just for the record, WARP was not the song I was suggesting by The Bloody Beetroots. I do really like the music, but for a goal song it really doesn't work.
Funny though, this must be really hard for the Flames. When my g/f worked with the Flames, she would get complaints about the music ALL the time. Either too loud or they did not like the artist. This is why I think the event staff have a brutal job, where they can never please everyone.
Just please no Fall out boy. I was at the pre-season game they used it, and it did not work at all.
Not that there's anything wrong with liking that EDM or this song in particular, but you're trying to convince someone of your view, you need to develop a better taste . It propably takes more practice to become seriously good at NHL 14 than to create something that generic. (Sorry, but dear god did I hate that stuff.)
To speak more generally, there's so much more to electronic music than dance music. Trying to defend electronic music with just EDM is like trying to defend Judas Priest using only Turbo Lover.
And even in dance music, not everything sounds like it was created by bubblegum machine.
To each their own but IMO, calling ATB generic EDM is like calling NWA generic rap. Yeah there's a lot out there that sounds like it today but back then it was hardly generic.
Either way, I'm only defending EDM production. Whether you like a certain genre or subgenre is up to you. I just don't take kindly to the whole art being tossed under the bus.
To each their own but IMO, calling ATB generic EDM is like calling NWA generic rap. Yeah there's a lot out there that sounds like it today but back then it was hardly generic.
Oh please. NWA is often described as the most important group in rap history. ATB is generally described as "really popular".
Also, that's a terrible argument in general.
1) Being the first does actually make the music any better. By your argument, if the world had ended in 2000 it might not be generic. It didn't. The other stuff is out there, and if this sounds like all the rest, then this is just as generic as all the rest.
2) Actual pioneers tend to stand out over time. Guys like Gary Numan and Trent Reznor have had way more influence in electronic music than ATB, yet they still sound instantly recognizable.
More importantly however, even if the world HAD ended in 200, ATB would still be mostly generic. Just having your own style does not a pioneer make.
You're so out to lunch I don't even know where to start. You think cause you rattled off some VST's you have credibility? I really didn't want to keep this going cause it's pointless and I'm getting genuinely frustrated which is stupid but you are completely clueless in terms of what it takes to make good EDM music.
Also your main argument in that post is backwards in my opinion. Teach an EDM producer the basics of an instrument and they will probably master it a lot quicker than a "musician" would master EDM production. When you make EDM you have to know your notes, your chords, your scales, different techniques like vibrato and portamento, you have to know what an arpeggio is, what a harmonic is. You need understand music just like you would playing any other instrument. It would just be a matter of learning how to physically play the instrument.
What differs and what makes your argument fall apart is most musicians focus on one or two instruments when they write music while an EDM musician has to understand how every instrument, every synth, every effect, every aspect of production works and how they work together. You don't have the luxury of being able to strum a guitar, sing a little tune and than have someone else (i.e. a music producer) put it all together for you. Take your hypothetical average competent guitarist, put him in front of a mixing board, compressor or an equalizer and most of them will probably be clueless. Only seasoned musicians with plenty of studio time would have any clue what they are doing. Well here's a fun fact for you...
You can't be successful in EDM without mastering that aspect of music.
It's not an option. So while Mr. EDM producer has to learn how to physically play an instrument, Mr. Guitarist has to not only learn how to use a VST, he also has to learn every aspect of music production. Now I'm being nice and I'm assuming we're letting Mr. Guitarist off the hook and letting him use preset sounds. Sound design is a whole other aspect that quality EDM producers need to understand as well which is an instrument in itself. I'd love to see Mr. Guitarist handle something like this:
Now a days most EDM producers don't have analog synths like that but the premise of sound design is still the same. You just don't have to physically turn the knobs and route your patches. Oh and in case you don't know what "sound design" means, it's creating the actual sound. So before you can even play a note, you have to figure out how to make a sound.
But yeah. Playing the solo to sweet child o' mine should really garner more respect.
Haha.. oh boy. I think you've watched a little too much "Get Him to the Greek" lately.
Your view of musicians is just astounding. In this day and age the musician will sit down and contribute through the production process, and in lots of cases, take on the process themselves. They will at least have a working knowledge of it. But the biggest flaw in your argument is that working with recordings from a studio or outside a studio takes a lot more work than samples electronic artists work with, which require next to no cleaning up. Adding reverb, EQ effects/adjustments, distortion/overdrive, modulation effects like phasers, and panning your tracks to give a full sound is the extent of what these samples are put through, which isn't difficult, it just takes time. There aren't usually many if any clean up tools required because the sounds are already in good, clean shape from the get go. With studio/external recording you have to think about the whole environment in which it is taking place. Microphone types, locations, room size to account for reverb, the dimensions and surfaces of the recording space to achieve a specific sound, soundproofing, arrangements, equipment/hardware, use of pop filters etc. And that is pretty much a science in itself, you would know that if you'd learned about it. It takes a really good ear to make it come out right. Cause the production process afterwards can only give it so much.
Electronic artists have it easy in that regard. What they do with their sounds may be creative and impressive, but they're already working from sounds that have a certain level of quality to begin with. Some like to go to a studio and record their own samples and that certainly adds more to the production. But a lot of these artists use clean, stock, computer generated synths, or pre-recorded and cleaned up samples and beats that really don't need much work, aside from the added effects to make them their own (or their "design"), which require fairly straight forward tools contained in the software to gain the desired effects. And the various instruments they keep track of are actually also work just the same as synths, and require no knowledge of how any of these instruments are palyed in real life. Recording all these instruments within the computer is basically just playing a keyboard for each instrument. Sure, artists may have a vast knowledge of music theory, and understand how the sounds/frequencies work but they're not physically doing it themselves, or recording it themselves, and there is a difference there.
In reality though (in regards to the main argument you made) the production process you're discussing is actually far more immense and complex when it comes to live/studio recordings compared to internal electronic creations. Sorry polak, but you've actually only defeated yourself with that argument without quite realizing it..
Would love to keep running in circles but the manner in which you're reacting to all this is a little worrisome. I'm just going to leave it there.
Last edited by djsFlames; 10-05-2013 at 06:39 PM.
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Okay like I said, to each his own. I'm not arguing about liking a certain genre. ATB is far and away my favorite musician, you clearly don't like him. That's fine.
BTW, Mike Oldfield blows any of the guys you mentioned out of the water. IMO so does Deep Forest, but we can carry on that discussion in the EDM thread.
Would love to keep running in circles but the manner in which you're reacting to all this is a little worrisome. I'm just going to leave it there.
Okay now you're not discussing basic songwriting of EDM vs. Whatever instrument.
I never once claimed that the production side of recording live instruments is easy. I claimed that most musicians aren't nearly as involved in that process which you know is true. My point was that to make EDM you don't have a choice but to have extensive knowledge on the matter.
If you want to talk about great musicians that fully immerse themselves in the production process then we can talk the hundreds of EDM artists that work with live instruments too.
Also I don't think there is a single successful EDM artist that uses pre-made "beats". Even bedroom producers like me spend hours obsessing over how our kick drum sounds in a track. No self-respecting producer would sample and use an unaltered beat and the extreme vast majority don't sample at all in their tracks outside of effects and percussion instruments (which again, are usually heavily altered).
Remember, you are the one who threw a whole genre under the bus. I have nothing against playing instruments and I fully respect anyone who tries to make their own music, regardless of medium or genre.
I am a musician, I play multiple instruments, I play live instruments in a band.
I have friends who are into EDM, do mixing, DJing at local clubs, etc.
I can see there is a level of difficulty, skill, and a high knowledge requirement in both. I tried to follow what my friend was doing one night as I watched him DJ in a club and it was either way over my head or so simple that he wasn't actually doing anything but hitting buttons to queue up the next tracks.
To me, DJing could be the more difficult skill as you need to be judging the mood of the audience to produce a decent mix that fits the current atmosphere to keep the energy going and to transition the right mixes and tracks at the right time to fit the moment.
I don't like DJing and EDM myself simply because I don't enjoy the current styles, culture, sounds, etc. that are out there and popular right now. There are definitely a lot of people doing electronic music that I do love but they are more underground and retro. Because stadium music tends to be populist, I don't think I would like electronic music in hockey unless it has more time-tested heritage.
You can definitely find electronic music as part of major sports. The Chicago Bulls' theme is Sirius from the Alan Parson's Project but this is as far from modern EDM as you can get as it's 70's progressive synth rock.
While there is a certain degree of improvisation, you are always playing with canned tracks and you can't just fly off and play your own thing whenever you want to as long as you are in the same key. Why can't there be a medium that combines EDM, mixed backing tracks, and live instrumental virtuosity? The whole time my friend was DJing I was craving for a keyboard to throw in my own keyboard riffs or a bass so I could make up some basslines to whatever he was mixing on the spot.
I'm not gonna begin to pretend that I know allot about any specific genre. But to compare electronic music to playing NHL on an xbox is just plain ignorant. I often wonder why the people that make these types of claims fail to pursue a career in electronic music? You get to live like a rockstar, roll in 300k a night and all you have to do is push play.
People that share this type of thinking aren't even worth the discussion. The scope of electronic music is far beyond their comprehension.
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Okay like I said, to each his own. I'm not arguing about liking a certain genre. ATB is far and away my favorite musician, you clearly don't like him. That's fine.
That's absolutely fine, and yeah, don't like him and never did.
Maybe it's just the history buff in me, but I just dislike it when people extrapolate from "I really like this guy" into "this guy is musically important" or "this guy is a musical genius".
It's really common, but rarely true.
I guess it's kind of easy for me to say, since I tend to make a big deal of my love of "c rapmu s ic"...
Why can't there be a medium that combines EDM, mixed backing tracks, and live instrumental virtuosity? The whole time my friend was DJing I was craving for a keyboard to throw in my own keyboard riffs or a bass so I could make up some basslines to whatever he was mixing on the spot.
Music is pretty much like porn. If you can imagine it, someone is already doing it.
Can we please stop all this "EDM" talk. All I keep seeing is "Edmonton" followed by people defending it, which on this section of the forum is forbidden.
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Why can't there be a medium that combines EDM, mixed backing tracks, and live instrumental virtuosity? The whole time my friend was DJing I was craving for a keyboard to throw in my own keyboard riffs or a bass so I could make up some basslines to whatever he was mixing on the spot.
See Nicolas Jaar. While he may be one of the most pretentious d-bags out there he's amazingly talented.
But yeah. Playing the solo to sweet child o' mine should really garner more respect.
Even 25 years after its release people still know Sweet Child o' Mine. In 10 years no one is going to remember any of the EDM of today because EDM is disposable music.
Last edited by WilderPegasus; 10-05-2013 at 08:14 PM.
Even 25 years after it's release people still know Sweet Child o' Mine. In 10 years no one is going to remember any of the EDM of today because EDM is disposable music.
Hah okay. I dont think you understand the dedication of edm fans. Its like hip hop. It has its own culture that goes with it.
. It propably takes more practice to become seriously good at NHL 14 than to create something that generic. (Sorry, but dear god did I hate that stuff.)
OMG 
