Nutrition

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by WilderPegasus

But don't whine about not being able to know who to turn to nutrition advice when you're giving everyone who provides you advice an almost impossible task.

A vegetarian diet that is healthy ( provides all the nutrients that I need) and won't cause me to gain fat is an impossible task? If that is the case then I do give up.

[squiggs96]

Hunter Pence, of the San Francisco Giants, started the Paleo diet in August 2012. This year he had his best statistical season ever, made even more remarkable by the fact he plays in a pitcher friendly ballpark for 81 of the games. He also was the first Giant to start every game since 1954 (when they played 8 less games than in 2013) and missed only 14 defensive innings.

You may not end up being a World Series champ, but there is a ton of information out there about and by him. He gives lots of tips, meal choices and dietary information. He loves eating giant plates of kale and has special meals brought in for him on plane trips. Searching him might be a good place to start.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

How is that? Eggs and dairy are not starchy carbs.

Well meat is simply a better source of protein. Eggs are great, but you'd have to eat up to 12 eggs per day in order to get JUST 100g of protein. If you're doing paleo, chances are you're going for more protein than normal, so .8g per 1lb of bodyweight is a good goal, and that is a lofty goal if you don't touch meat. Each to his own though, and it can certainly be done.

Knowing that I was vegetarian, the PT did give me a second sheet, but it was more geared towards vegans:
Day 1: "Breakfast: 1/3 cup of oatmeal, protein shake with flaxmeal, 3oz berries; Lunch: 2 small muffins, unsalted sunflower seeds, nutmilk, cucumber; Dinner: large salad with avacado"
Day 2: "Breakfast: Half an english muffin with 3 tbsp of almond butter, veggies with hummus; Lunch: protein shake, nutmilk, lentil salad; Dinner: sweet potato, steamed zucchini, beet salad with flax oil dressing"

Almost none of that seemed appealling... so I sorta built my own:
Day 1: "Breakfast: 3 eggs, 3 egg whites, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, soy chicken breast, grapes; Dinner: veggie wrap x 2, Snack: almonds"
Day 2: "Breakfast: Smoothie with berries and whey powder, greek yogurt; Lunch: steamed veggies, vegetarian chilli with tofu; Dinner: green beans, quinoa, vegetarian ribs Snack: apple, hard boiled eggs

I haven't run that diet by anybody.... I was going to run it by the dietician yesterday until I realized that she had her own meal plan she wanted me to use and wasn't interested in seeing what I drew up.

English muffin? Really? Horrible source of carbs.

I like your own plan a lot better. Again add some oatmeal, brown rice and sweet potatoes for GOOD carbs. Maybe milk?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

If that's the case, then she is a pretty terrible dietician. A good one should be willing to work with you to find meal plans that they think meet your dietary needs, and are both convenient and appealing for you. If it doesn't fit those last two criteria, she might as well tell you to eat nothing but unicorn steaks, because you aren't gonna be able to stick to either.

Nevermind the whole cost factor. Meal plans are great and all, but not everyone can afford to be so picky about what they eat.

[Devils'Advocate]

I ran a new meal plan by my PT that I thought was FULL of protein. She reviewed it and said I need way more protein. She wants 1g per pound that I weigh. So I'm at 180lbs and most days I was at 140g.

If I use an online calculator, even if I say that I am extremely active (I exercise a lot, but my job is COMPLETELY sedentary) , it says only 108.
http://www.healthcalculators.org/cal...rs/protein.asp

So I thought 140 was awesome.

Also I do my weight training in the mornings. I have breakfast, go to the gym, and then to work. She's suggesting that I have breakfast AFTER the gym because the body needs the proteins after I work out. Is this right? It is more effective to have the protein AFTER the workout rather than before?

And lastly, she is suggesting I just have something as simple as protein shakes after the workout. I gather that the powders are quite expensive. Where do people recommend getting them from?

[sa226]

I read an article recently that discussed how research has shown that it doesn't matter if you eat before or after a workout (ie get your protein).

The most important part of your daily protein intake is spreading it throughout the day. Instead of 100g after you work out then 40g for dinner, spread it evenly 50\50\40.

The studies have shown that your body uses the protein much more efficiently.

I'll see if I can find it.

[GGG]

Take a look at some of the Canadian diabetes diet recomendations for some ideas. I believe from some reading of various levels of science based research to others and my own annecdotal evidence that eating a low glycemic index diet is an effective way to feel full, and lose weight.

Some of the general concepts are no refined sugars. For me this includes limiting bread, pasta, intake making sure it is whole wheat and switching to Quinoa instead of rice based dishes.

I also cranked up my fruit intake if I want carbs because of something I read in some book. (can't remember which one). But it was an anti sugar book, and included refined carbs in bread as things that would cause weight gain but it really push fruit. The logic being that although fruit is high in carbohydrates it is also high in fiber. And the sweeter a fruit is generally the more fiber it contains. Looking at sugar cane it is practically all fiber but very sweet.

One other rule I have is no liquid calories (aside from beer or wine occasionally). This was based on various studies I had read which showed that liquid calories don't lead to any satiation of appetite. Meaning that if you drink a glass of orange juice for breakfast you will eat the same about as if you didn't drink the glass of orange juice. So the Orange Juice is purely additional calories. From what I have read this was true for Pop, Smoothies, Juice, Milk etc. It didn't matter the source of the liquid calories, none of them made you feel full.

My issue with the Paleo logic is that evolution does not select the best diet. It only selects a diet which was successful at getting those who ate it to child rearing age. In humans this was a high flexible system that could eat and get calories from almost anything. This system was able to take advantage of being a hunter gatherer and take advantage of the invention of agriculture. It makes us fat when we have an abundance of food and allows us to store calories for when food is scarace. So trying to argue what we ate at 1 point in time is the best because that is how we evolved misses the entire point of evolution. The best or strongest spieces didn't survive, the ones that could adapt to change the best did. That said I perfer a low refined carb diet becasue I found them a source of many calories that did not add much nutrition and were quite easy to cut out.

[Hack&Lube]

After the unavoidable Christmas binge period, I've spent January low carb. I haven't touched any refined sugar, wheat (bread/pasta), rice, potatoes, starchy vegetables, fruit, etc. at all.

I spend the weekends grilling or slow cooking meats and eat them throughout the week. It usually consists of Chicken Breasts, Turkey Breast, Salmon, Cod/Haddock, Steak, and Pork.

Last weekend, I had a craving for ribs and slow BBQ'd two huge racks including breastbones that I got in bulk. The breastbone pieces were made into pulled pork and the ribs were made with low-carb BBQ sauce I concocted (based on reduced diet coke).

Vegetables consist of romaine, spring mix, super greens, snap peas, broccoli, cauliflower. Breakfast is eggs and bacon. Snacks are cheese.

I have not really noticed any change in weight or appearance but I feel much better than I did over the entirety of 2013. Have to start working out and training for a bike race in the summer. I snuck a few slices of Apple and Grapefruit that were in the office platter today and man I instantly felt dizzy like a kid in kindergarten with sugar high (fructose frenzy? lol). My head aches and I feel like I am going to pass out after eating them.

[Flabbibulin]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I ran a new meal plan by my PT that I thought was FULL of protein. She reviewed it and said I need way more protein. She wants 1g per pound that I weigh. So I'm at 180lbs and most days I was at 140g.

If I use an online calculator, even if I say that I am extremely active (I exercise a lot, but my job is COMPLETELY sedentary) , it says only 108.
http://www.healthcalculators.org/cal...rs/protein.asp

So I thought 140 was awesome.

Also I do my weight training in the mornings. I have breakfast, go to the gym, and then to work. She's suggesting that I have breakfast AFTER the gym because the body needs the proteins after I work out. Is this right? It is more effective to have the protein AFTER the workout rather than before?

And lastly, she is suggesting I just have something as simple as protein shakes after the workout. I gather that the powders are quite expensive. Where do people recommend getting them from?

Your goals in the gym should determine what you eat before and after- if you are only doing a cardio session with the intention of losing body fat, there is no doubt that going on an empty stomach first thing in the morning is ideal- this usually means that your body is burning stored energy, in the form of fat, as opposed to the energy you just took in from your breakfast.

If you are weight training and hoping to put on muscle mass, then eating before (about 60min) and immediately after is ideal- both meals being high in protein and carbs. Carbs are essential for energy required in weight training, and both crabs and protein are essential for muscle growth. If time is an issue in the morning with two meals, I would suggest one of the two meals be a protein shake- whey protein, frozen fruit, almond milk type of thing. Can easily be prepared in advance if it is your post workout shake.

With regards to recommended protein levels, there is no doubt that 1 gram per pound is ideal if you are hoping put on muscle mass. Most official health guides will recommend .5 grams I believe, but 1 gram it is pretty much the standard recommendation in the fitness world.

Pretty simple formula for me, although I workout in the evenings- schedule my dinner to be right after the gym. I have a pre-workout meal 60 minutes before the gym in which I try to take in about 40 grams of carbs and 30 grams of protein. I usually try to eat protein in 30g increments, divided among 6 meals or so. Usually structure the majority of my carb intake to pre and post workout and breakfast.

[Yakbutter]

I've done both diets. The only thing a person going on a high protein + fruit/veggie should know is that it is very hard psychologically not to eat carbohydrates. You get very intense cravings for starchy foods and you will feel like crap most of the time.

Good idea for body builders and certain athletes, but for the average person, I don't think it's a very realistic diet. Nothing wrong with eating some oatmeal, brown rice or a potato.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

Your goals in the gym should determine what you eat before and after- if you are only doing a cardio session with the intention of losing body fat, there is no doubt that going on an empty stomach first thing in the morning is ideal- this usually means that your body is burning stored energy, in the form of fat, as opposed to the energy you just took in from your breakfast.

This is false. Your body stores glycogen in your muscles which support somewhere around 20-30 km of running or equivalent calorie burn before your body turns to other sources to make up the difference.

Also if you are depleting your glycogen stores your body needs carbs in order to burn the fat that is stored within your body.

[GreenLantern]

What flab said, it all depends on your goals.

Are you trying to lose weight? Bulk? Cut?

Fasted training is quite popular, I started doing it myself when I switched to AM work outs about a year ago, I highly recommend it no matter what your goals are. I generally don't eat anything before the gym, then follow my work out with a scoop of whey protein in water immediately after (this is usually about 8 AM). Then when I get to work I have my breakfast.

The only time I will eat something is if I didn't have a night time snack or if I had a small supper for whatever reason. And this is simply for my mental state/fatigue, it has nothing to do with actual gains. It just helps me get through the work out. Generally that would be like 1/4 cup of instant oats or a scoop of whey protein in skim milk. Keep it as light as possible.

For the protein powders, assuming you are in Calgary and assuming they have a Pop Eyes, you can grab it there. That is probably the most expensive place to get it. Costco actually has a really good whey isolate for around $50 for a 4.4 lb tub. I always keep one in my house in case I run out of my favourite brand:

http://ca.bodybuilding.com/store/opt...uestid=6373453

Hands down the best bang for your buck when it comes to powders.. I can hold thsi up to my Costco brand and they are damn near identical, but what the Costco brand lacks is taste. ON tastes a lot better. Bodybuilding.com is a great suppie website because they ship from Canada (again assuming you are in Canada). A lot of other websites out there, muscleandstrength.com or fitnessone.com will hammer you with extra duties/expensive shipping when you cross the border more often than not.

[Flabbibulin]

Originally Posted by GGG

This is false. Your body stores glycogen in your muscles which support somewhere around 20-30 km of running or equivalent calorie burn before your body turns to other sources to make up the difference.

Also if you are depleting your glycogen stores your body needs carbs in order to burn the fat that is stored within your body.

Ok fair enough, but it isn't like I made up this logic on the spot- Given your knowlegde, I am sure you are aware that this is very commonly preached by many fitness people across the globe. Of course there are many that suggest differently, giving the sort of details you have. At the end of the day, I think the best thing to do, with regards to cardio and fat burning, is to test out the times and pre-cardio fueling that works best for you and gives results.

There is no doubt that pre and post workout fueling before weight training and lifting (non cardio sessions) is very important.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I ran a new meal plan by my PT that I thought was FULL of protein. She reviewed it and said I need way more protein. She wants 1g per pound that I weigh. So I'm at 180lbs and most days I was at 140g.

If I use an online calculator, even if I say that I am extremely active (I exercise a lot, but my job is COMPLETELY sedentary) , it says only 108.
http://www.healthcalculators.org/cal...rs/protein.asp

So I thought 140 was awesome.

Also I do my weight training in the mornings. I have breakfast, go to the gym, and then to work. She's suggesting that I have breakfast AFTER the gym because the body needs the proteins after I work out. Is this right? It is more effective to have the protein AFTER the workout rather than before?

And lastly, she is suggesting I just have something as simple as protein shakes after the workout. I gather that the powders are quite expensive. Where do people recommend getting them from?

You need protein AND carbs after your workout. Some people argue it doesn't matter if you get them before, so it depends on how your body reacts.

IMO, 140g per day for a 180lb guy is very good.

Protein powder is the best way to get fast digesting protein into your system to help repair your muscles and replenish depleted glycogen stores. Costco usually has good quality powder for great prices.

Otherwise I bodybuilding dot com has a great online store with cheap shipping to Canada.

What kind of weight training are you doing?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by sa226

I read an article recently that discussed how research has shown that it doesn't matter if you eat before or after a workout (ie get your protein).

The most important part of your daily protein intake is spreading it throughout the day. Instead of 100g after you work out then 40g for dinner, spread it evenly 50\50\40.

The studies have shown that your body uses the protein much more efficiently.

I'll see if I can find it.

Might have been the same study that says your body can't utilize more than 30g of protein at a time, and people are effectively wasting quality protein if they don't spread it out more throughout the day.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Yakbutter

I've done both diets. The only thing a person going on a high protein + fruit/veggie should know is that it is very hard psychologically not to eat carbohydrates. You get very intense cravings for starchy foods and you will feel like crap most of the time.

Good idea for body builders and certain athletes, but for the average person, I don't think it's a very realistic diet. Nothing wrong with eating some oatmeal, brown rice or a potato.

Actually, I would say it is better for athletes and body builders to eat high carb diets.

Carbohydrates can fuel and help build and repair muscle mass better than fats can.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I ran a new meal plan by my PT that I thought was FULL of protein. She reviewed it and said I need way more protein. She wants 1g per pound that I weigh. So I'm at 180lbs and most days I was at 140g.

If I use an online calculator, even if I say that I am extremely active (I exercise a lot, but my job is COMPLETELY sedentary) , it says only 108.
http://www.healthcalculators.org/cal...rs/protein.asp

So I thought 140 was awesome.

Also I do my weight training in the mornings. I have breakfast, go to the gym, and then to work. She's suggesting that I have breakfast AFTER the gym because the body needs the proteins after I work out. Is this right? It is more effective to have the protein AFTER the workout rather than before?

And lastly, she is suggesting I just have something as simple as protein shakes after the workout. I gather that the powders are quite expensive. Where do people recommend getting them from?

Based on what I know about you DA, you have reason to be a little nitpicky as far as diet and exercise as subtleties make a big difference since you've lost and kept off so much weight. In my years looking up research / dealing with nutrition and resistance training, however, I've come to realize that nearly everybody obsesses over the little things and ignores the big things.

The big things would be things like avoiding "cheating", skipping work outs, that sort of thing. The little things are those like you're asking about, like when to intake protein.

The reality is we don't really know. Some studies give insight as to some of these subtleties but the majority of what you'll hear is anecdotal evidence, which could go either way.

Here's a good review article about exercise & protein intake.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20565767
The issue with recommendations for protein are they're based on deficiency calculation (nitrogen excretion), so are very inexact. Recommendations range from 1.0 g / kg body weight protein all the way up to 2.0+g.

I'd suggest focusing on the big things instead of driving yourself crazy.

[Azure]

^^^agreed.

Even the amount of protein you get isn't such a big deal to me anymore. Avoiding crappy food is much more important.

[Calgary14]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I'm no expert, but my take is that you shouldn't really trust anyone who claims that there is only 1 way to lose weght or eat a healty diet, whether it be a Paleo diet, or the canada food plan, or their own methods.

The fact of the matter is, everyone is different. Depending on your previous lifestyle, your current lifestyle, your activity level, and what kind of activity you do, and what your goals are (run a marathon, vs straight up body compostion), you're going to have different requirements.

If you see anyone who is trying to prescribe a certain diet without asking you about all those factors and more, then I would't be using them as a source of truth.

I agree, and I think balance is the key. It sounds boring, plain and simple - and it is. Anything else is a fad

[GreenLantern]

While you do need to account for both sides of the argument, you also have to chose a side.

You can't hop back and forth, you have to go with one side, try it, see if it works for you. Everyone is different that is the first thing you will find out, just because Jon Snow's eating 400 carbs a day to bulk doesn't mean that Oberyn Martell needs that many too, he has to figure out what works best for him.

I always just give advice from the stand point of what works for me taking for granted that the person I am talking to will understand this isn't a template to follow, but just a view point.