[Trade] Flames trade a conditional 2014 4th for Joe Colborne

[MrMastodonFarm]

If Hartley can turned Colborne into a solid two-way third line player the way Sutter did with Rob Niedermayer, finally making him useful, I will be thrilled.

[t0rrent98]

Originally Posted by Mitch

Seriously?

All I am saying is if he were to bulk up to at least 240lbs, he can be like Eric Lindros, minus the injuries of course. For some reason, I see him playing more like Lindros than guys like Thornton or Getzlaf if he were to be that 1st line center men.

[$ven27]

Originally Posted by t0rrent98

All I am saying is if he were to bulk up to at least 240lbs, he can be like Eric Lindros, minus the injuries of course. For some reason, I see him playing more like Lindros than guys like Thornton or Getzlaf if he were to be that 1st line center men.

If he bulks up to 240, he'd be like David Steckel or Brian Boyle, not Eric freakin' Lindros, come on.

[Ashasx]

Steckel's greatest asset is his faceoff ability. Colborne has a long way to go to improve that.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Some really great depth, but still missing that game-breaking superstar (I see Monahan as more of a 1B/2 guy). I don't think we will be a contender till we find our own Stamkos/Tavares in this position. Hopefully in the next 2-3 drafts that happens....just need to be patient I guess.

The Bruins show how depth at C can pan out

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by t0rrent98

All I am saying is if he were to bulk up to at least 240lbs, he can be like Eric Lindros, minus the injuries of course. For some reason, I see him playing more like Lindros than guys like Thornton or Getzlaf if he were to be that 1st line center men.

We're still talking about Joe Colborne here, right?

[FlamesAddiction]

I'm actually ssurprised that so many people thought that he was destined to be a 1st or 2nd line centre.

He needs to change his game if he wants to play in the NHL. His offensive game has simply not translated to the NHL and is at best, adequate at the AHL level. He has the physical attributes that if he applies himself, he should be able to make it as a checking centre though.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

The Bruins show how depth at C can pan out

The Bruins are an exception (though I think both Bergeron and Krejci are still great centers, if not franchise guys), but having perhaps the best playoff power-forward in the game, a dominating Norris winner, one of the best young goalies in the league, and a super-pest with actual skill, had a lot to do with their success too. Add in smattering of top picks, a great coach, and a fantastic supporting cast, and you have a great team.

At the end of the day though, history shows that most Stanley Cup winners tend to almost always have that at least one or two of those franchise type forwards who usually tends to be a Centre... whether it's Crosby/Malkin, Toews/Kane, Kopitar/Richards, Zetterberg/Datsyuk, Staal, Getzlaf/Perry, Lecavalier/St.Louis.

I'm not saying you can't have success without a true 1A center or a superstar forward....but it sure seems a lot more likely to happen if history has anything to do with it. Because hey, we've had two freaking decades without a true #1 Center and have one lucky year to show for it. Let's for once try the obvious solution...you know, just for kicks.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Table 5

The Bruins are an exception (though I think both Bergeron and Krejci are still great centers, if not franchise guys), but having perhaps the best playoff power-forward in the game, a dominating Norris winner, one of the best young goalies in the league, and a super-pest with actual skill, had a lot to do with their success too. Add in smattering of top picks, a great coach, and a fantastic supporting cast, and you have a great team.

At the end of the day though, history shows that most Stanley Cup winners tend to almost always have that at least one or two of those franchise type forwards who usually tends to be a Centre... whether it's Crosby/Malkin, Toews/Kane, Kopitar/Richards, Zetterberg/Datsyuk, Staal, Getzlaf/Perry, Lecavalier/St.Louis.

I'm not saying you can't have success without a true 1A center or a superstar forward....but it sure seems a lot more likely to happen if history has anything to do with it. Because hey, we've had two freaking decades without a true #1 Center and have one lucky year to show for it. Let's for once try the obvious solution...you know, just for kicks.

It's an interesting debate and an interesting list of players you've mentioned. The last four Stanley Cup winners didn't really have that stereotypical franchise superstar centre, huge scorers or massive 100+ point guys.

Even your list is a little all over the place (Kane, Perry and St. Louis are wingers, though substitute Richards), guys like Kopitar, Richards, Toews are the current group that I'm hoping Monahan becomes but they aren't the big point getters that Crosby and Malkin are. They're the great two-way guys that the recent winners have seemed to be building around, building with great depth.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

It's an interesting debate and an interesting list of players you've mentioned. The last four Stanley Cup winners didn't really have that stereotypical franchise superstar centre, huge scorers or massive 100+ point guys.

Even your list is a little all over the place (Kane, Perry and St. Louis are wingers, though substitute Richards), guys like Kopitar, Richards, Toews are the current group that I'm hoping Monahan becomes but they aren't the big point getters that Crosby and Malkin are. They're the great two-way guys that the recent winners have seemed to be building around, building with great depth.

Which is I why I said "one or two franchise type forwards", not specifically centres.

Personally, I don't really count guys like Crosby as something to strive for...that guy is a generational player. You can't ever plan to get that type of guy, he has to fall in to your lap. But the rest of the guys on that list are definitely not your average depth guy. You have MVPs, Richard Trophy winners, Art Ross winners etc. They might not be Sidney or Mario, but some of the best players today in my eyes....who also happen to be great all-around players.

I'm not saying depth is not important (because clearly it is), but chances are a Cup winner will have a superstar or two on their team at some positions. And unless you have Marty Brodeur in goal, that position is usually a forward....and that forward is usually (but not always!) a center.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I'm actually ssurprised that so many people thought that he was destined to be a 1st or 2nd line centre.

He needs to change his game if he wants to play in the NHL. His offensive game has simply not translated to the NHL and is at best, adequate at the AHL level. He has the physical attributes that if he applies himself, he should be able to make it as a checking centre though.

He's played 16 games in the NHL... a bit of a small sample to say anything regarding his offense.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Which is I why I said "one or two franchise type forwards", not specifically centres.

Personally, I don't really count guys like Crosby as something to strive for...that guy is a generational player. You can't ever plan to get that type of guy, he has to fall in to your lap. But the rest of the guys on that list are definitely not your average depth guy. You have MVPs, Richard Trophy winners, Art Ross winners etc. They might not be Sidney or Mario, but some of the best players today in my eyes....who also happen to be great all-around players.

I'm not saying depth is not important (because clearly it is), but chances are a Cup winner will have a superstar or two on their team at some positions. And unless you have Marty Brodeur in goal, that position is usually a forward....and that forward is usually (but not always!) a center.

I think a discussion into what makes good teams great would make a good thread. Team success is so complex and there isn't one path. It's not just good players (80/90's Rangers for the most part) or even great individuals, good coaches or good GMs. Sometimes a team that is not great can win the cup ('04 Flames). A hot goalie, a stud defenseman, top center, etc, aren't it either. Confidence and maturity are important, as are intangibles like hockey iq, commitment and drive. Team fitness seems to be a highlight of great teams too. It's fascinating to me.


Edit: and how many teams have players become superstars because they win the cup and not vice versa? That could be said for Kopitar, Brad Richards, Bergeron, etc.

[Table 5]

Yeah, there's definitely not one magic formula to success... a lot of elements (including luck) have to come together for a team to win the cup. Seeing different teams try different strategies is what makes the sport so interesting.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^^ Agree. A lot of common ingredients that you see pop up again and again. Depending on team identity. 2 way center(s). A must. D that are tough to play against. Good third line, and a good defensive C (J Staal, Draper, Bolland,whichever Bruins C slots in as 3rd, Yelle) Pest (Marchand, Bolland, Claude Lemieux, Niemo on the Flames). Goalie on top of his game. Then your gamebreaker(s).

Lots of pieces the Flames have lacked for years.

When Burke talks about a blueprint, you can be sure he does not mean to stick up in a bunch of jacks of all trades that are generally serviceable but don't quite fit important roles.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I'm actually ssurprised that so many people thought that he was destined to be a 1st or 2nd line centre.

He needs to change his game if he wants to play in the NHL. His offensive game has simply not translated to the NHL and is at best, adequate at the AHL level. He has the physical attributes that if he applies himself, he should be able to make it as a checking centre though.

16 NHL games in (as mentioned above) & most of which hampered by a serious wrist injury. The guy's game is based around vision and really smooth hands, so if you take away one of his hands his offence disappears. His wrist is back to normal now.

By all accounts his injury forced him to improve his all-around play as he had to play a traditional bottom-6 role. He chose to play through the pain for much of his first stint in the NHL, and though he knew it would hamper his offensive skills he decided to play & help his team in whatever way he could. THAT is the kind of player & persona we need on this team. I have no doubt this change of scenery will be great for him.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

if you take away one of his hands his offence disappears.

I'm pretty sure that can be said of any player.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

16 NHL games in (as mentioned above) & most of which hampered by a serious wrist injury. The guy's game is based around vision and really smooth hands, so if you take away one of his hands his offence disappears. His wrist is back to normal now.

By all accounts his injury forced him to improve his all-around play as he had to play a traditional bottom-6 role. He chose to play through the pain for much of his first stint in the NHL, and though he knew it would hamper his offensive skills he decided to play & help his team in whatever way he could. THAT is the kind of player & persona we need on this team. I have no doubt this change of scenery will be great for him.

It's not just 16 NHL games (only one more than Nemisz), but his AHL accomplishments and the fact that he is on his 3rd team and is only 24 (soon to be anyway). If his offensive game was translating well to the NHL, he would have more than 16 games. Plus the fact that Burke has suggested that he is not likely to cut it as a top 6 player. I think Calgarypuck is the only place you will find a consensus of people that thought they were getting a top 6 player in Colborne.

It's not completely out of the question, but I am surprised that so many people penciled him in as a top 6 centre right off the bat given his professional career to date.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's not just 16 NHL games (only one more than Nemisz), but his AHL accomplishments and the fact that he is on his 3rd team and is only 24 (soon to be anyway). If his offensive game was translating well to the NHL, he would have more than 16 games. Plus the fact that Burke has suggested that he is not likely to cut it as a top 6 player. I think Calgarypuck is the only place you will find a consensus of people that thought they were getting a top 6 player in Colborne.

It's not completely out of the question, but I am surprised that so many people penciled him in as a top 6 centre right off the bat given his professional career to date.

I don't think anyone is penciling him into the top 6 based on his NHL career to date. They are looking at his potential.

I am not saying that I think he will become a top 6, but it's not like it's unusual for guys to finally put it all together after they turn 23 and after a couple trades.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's not just 16 NHL games (only one more than Nemisz), but his AHL accomplishments and the fact that he is on his 3rd team and is only 24 (soon to be anyway). If his offensive game was translating well to the NHL, he would have more than 16 games. Plus the fact that Burke has suggested that he is not likely to cut it as a top 6 player. I think Calgarypuck is the only place you will find a consensus of people that thought they were getting a top 6 player in Colborne.

It's not completely out of the question, but I am surprised that so many people penciled him in as a top 6 centre right off the bat given his professional career to date.

Of those 3 teams hasn't Burke's organization acquired Colborne twice with the Leafs and now the Flames?
Also, can't we now say the same for Weisbrod acquiring Colborne with the Bruins and now the Flames?

If these guys did not see any potential in the kid I am really struggling to see why they would have made the trade for him at all. It is more likely that Burke doesn't see him as a top 6 player *right now*, which is fine.