[News] Flames send 4 more packing

[strombad]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

No one does now because they are winning. But you've read stories about them considering moving Kane at times because he's not a hard worker or he parties too hard.

Hockey people need to get over the idea that all hockey players need to have the good ole Canadian boy mindset. Some guys aren't going to be the quiet hardworking cliche spouting player. If a guy has a talent and helps the team than the team braintrust needs to be willing to accept it.

That's more or less what I meant by comparisons as to who is more "valuable", but you hit it right on the head. There is not some stereotypical player that everyone needs to be. Everyone needs a Toews, but a Kane helps you that much more. He's a little bit careless, not great in both ends, but he brings an intangible that a Toews doesn't.

Baertschi is going to do things Monahan can't. He's also going to get ragged on so much more often than Monahan for the things he DOESNT do, but that doesn't make him any less valuable to a team. Baertschi's skillset is replaceable, but having the chance to draft and develop a Baertschi is much more cost effective and quite frankly - easier than finding one through trade or signing. If people want him to be great defensively, to be a hard nosed puck battling winger who can also pot 50, then they're likely going to be extremely disappointed.

[BruceCody]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

Flames send 4 more packing

Captain Obvious reporting
Current preseason camp

LW Sven Baertschi
LW/C Lance Bouma
LW/C TJ Galiardi
LW Curtis Glencross

C Mikael Backlund
С Blair Jones
C/LW/RW Mike Cammalleri
C Sean Monahan
C Matt Stajan
C Ben Street
С Roman Horak

RW Tim Jackman
RW David Jones
RW Brian McGrattan
RW Lee Stempniak
RW/LW Jiri Hudler

LD Chris Butler
LD Chris Breen
LD/RD TJ Brodie
LD Mark Giordano
LD/RD Shane O'Brien
LD Kris Russell
LD Patrick Sieloff
LD Derek Smith

RD Dennis Wideman

G Reto Berra
G Joey MacDonald
G Karri Ramo

Pat Steinberg ‏@Fan960Steinberg
No Cammalleri, no Baertschi at practice this morning. Breen skating with the main group for the first time. #Flames

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by strombad

That's more or less what I meant by comparisons as to who is more "valuable", but you hit it right on the head. There is not some stereotypical player that everyone needs to be. Everyone needs a Toews, but a Kane helps you that much more. He's a little bit careless, not great in both ends, but he brings an intangible that a Toews doesn't.

Baertschi is going to do things Monahan can't. He's also going to get ragged on so much more often than Monahan for the things he DOESNT do, but that doesn't make him any less valuable to a team. Baertschi's skillset is replaceable, but having the chance to draft and develop a Baertschi is much more cost effective and quite frankly - easier than finding one through trade or signing. If people want him to be great defensively, to be a hard nosed puck battling winger who can also pot 50, then they're likely going to be extremely disappointed.

There is nothing wrong with what you are saying. I don't doubt for a second, that simply based on his skill set, regardless of what he's going through, Sven is likely a top 12 forward on this team at this very moment. I also agree that he's likely been looked at, not just by fans, but by coaches and management with a different, and likely not equal lens as someone like Monahan.

What some people are getting wrong is that because we are re-building, then tht means the best spot for Sven is automatically on the NHL roster. That's actually what would be the right thing to do for Calgary, if we were a contending team. Rolling your top 12 forwards is what you do if you looking for your best results now. As a rebuild team, you do what you feel the player needs long term. Even if Sven is actually playing top 12 on our roster now, but management feels he's underachieving based on his potential, and they feel that sending him down is the best way for him to reach that potential, then that's what they should do.

It doesn't matter if for example, that Sven is actually a better player than Monahan right now if they feel Sven's development will be better served by going to the Heat, and Monahan would be better served by getting some NHL time. They are in full player development mode, this season is a throw away, you do what is best for each individual prospect, and each prospect will have a different path. It's not as cut and dry as "who's the top 12 based on performance"..........that's what contending teams have to do, not re-build teams.

[Lanny_McDonald]

The issue with Baertschi appears to be his willingness to give his all no matter what role he is given on the team. His comments support that. He only sees opportunities worthy of him when he ends up playing with skilled top six players. When he is given other roles he doesn't play with the same intensity or commitment. That is where his problems lay. He needs to play with the same fire no matter what situation he finds himself. He can lean something from Mr. Horak in that regard. This is where he projects the sense of entitlement and I suspect what has management a little peeved right now.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by New Era

The issue with Baertschi appears to be his willingness to give his all no matter what role he is given on the team. His comments support that. He only sees opportunities worthy of him when he ends up playing with skilled top six players. When he is given other roles he doesn't play with the same intensity or commitment. That is where his problems lay. He needs to play with the same fire no matter what situation he finds himself. He can lean something from Mr. Horak in that regard. This is where he projects the sense of entitlement and I suspect what has management a little peeved right now.

Sven should definitely not follow Horak's example.

I know a lot of people really like Horak, but he really is not somebody anyone should aspire to be.

Sure, Sven could become an okay defensive 3rd line forward who will put up 30 points in a career year, but I'd rather he become an strong offensive 1st line forward, which he has the potential to become.

Not everyone needs to become Stephane Yelle.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Sven should definitely not follow Horak's example.

I know a lot of people really like Horak, but he really is not somebody anyone should aspire to be.

Sure, Sven could become an okay defensive 3rd line forward who will put up 30 points in a career year, but I'd rather he become an strong offensive 1st line forward, which he has the potential to become.

Not everyone needs to become Stephane Yelle.

Following Horak's example doesn't mean playing like Horak and lowering your self to a 3rd line player if you have top line skill. It means giving it your all in whatever role you are asked to play and learning how to play away from the puck or still be as effective as possible in the situation you are given. Not saving yourself for when you feel like you've been given the right situation to succeed.

[Street Pharmacist]

Ken Hitchcock to CalgaryPuck:

"Simmer down, be patient. Moon, you're wrong. Hartley is a great coach"

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...build/related/

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by New Era

The issue with Baertschi appears to be his willingness to give his all no matter what role he is given on the team. His comments support that. He only sees opportunities worthy of him when he ends up playing with skilled top six players. When he is given other roles he doesn't play with the same intensity or commitment. That is where his problems lay. He needs to play with the same fire no matter what situation he finds himself. He can lean something from Mr. Horak in that regard. This is where he projects the sense of entitlement and I suspect what has management a little peeved right now.

Good call. Why give Marc Savard prime ice time when Clarke Wilm works so much harder for it?

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Following Horak's example doesn't mean playing like Horak and lowering your self to a 3rd line player if you have top line skill. It means giving it your all in whatever role you are asked to play and learning how to play away from the puck or still be as effective as possible in the situation you are given. Not saving yourself for when you feel like you've been given the right situation to succeed.

Simply put start acting as a "Professional Hockey Player".

You know it's kind of funny Sven will be 21 in a few days. Not sure many of us in the same position at 21 could handle ourselves accordingly in or on a different continent.

Be that as it may he is talented but a little bit of Coach Ward's medicine of there is more to being a Professional Hockey Player than just a whole bunch of skill isn't the worst thing in the world for Sven. Although I'm thinking he could easily learn a whole bunch being around a Cammy, or Gelinas as well. I trust the Flames will make the appropriate decision.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Good call. Why give Marc Savard prime ice time when Clarke Wilm works so much harder for it?

Actually, that makes perfect sense if Mac Savard is 20 years old in this example. Why?
- Because whether the Flames play Marc Savard or Clarke Wilm this year, they are still going to miss the playoffs.
- Because letting Marc Savard know that he has to work as hard as possible, will make Marc Savard a much better player in the long run
- Because even though Marc Savard half assing is still better than Clarke Wilm, the Flames will need him to be much better than just Clarke Wilm should Marc Savard ever hope to be a key part of bringing the cup to Calgary down the road.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by FakenHaken

Simply put start acting as a "Professional Hockey Player".

You know it's kind of funny Sven will be 21 in a few days. Not sure many of us in the same position at 21 could handle ourselves accordingly in or on a different continent.

Be that as it may he is talented but a little bit of Coach Ward's medicine of there is more to being a Professional Hockey Player than just a whole bunch of skill isn't the worst thing in the world for Sven. Although I'm thinking he could easily learn a whole bunch being around a Cammy, or Gelinas as well. I trust the Flames will make the appropriate decision.

This is so the point. This is not a condemnation of Sven, he's a young man in a tough spot. It's ok if he's struggling with attitude or whatever right now, but as you said, I'm fully confident that if the Flames feel he needs to feel some "pain" or take some lumps for example if he's maybe let things go to his head, that he will come out of it and be better for it in the long run.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Actually, that makes perfect sense if Mac Savard is 20 years old in this example. Why?
- Because whether the Flames play Marc Savard or Clarke Wilm this year, they are still going to miss the playoffs.
- Because letting Marc Savard know that he has to work as hard as possible, will make Marc Savard a much better player in the long run, because even though Marc Savard half assing is still better than Clarke Wilm, the Flames will need him to be much better than just Clarke Wilm should Marc Savard ever hope to be a key part of bringing the cup to Calgary down the road.

Is this a serious post?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Good call. Why give Marc Savard prime ice time when Clarke Wilm works so much harder for it?

If you ask Marc Savard I'm sure he'll tell you that the time he spent with the Flames under the Gilbert reign of error was probably the best thing for his career. He learned that he has to work hard to earn his position. That was very evident in Boston. Without that lessons he learned here and the change he showed in Atlanta he likely never would have got that chance in Boston.

[Enoch Root]

Yes, players should always be working hard - and I don't see a lack of that from Baertschi.

But offensively skilled guys DO have to pick their spots: if you are always spending all of your energy backchecking, you don't have the wheels to generate offense.

I am not giving them a free pass, but the fact of the matter is that most creative offensive guys pick their spots with their speed (as opposed to muckers that have to go full speed all the time or they are unemployed).

Offensive guys typically look lousy in their own end (talking primarily wingers here) that doesn't make them lazy. It doesn't mean they have a bad attitude. It is the way they play the game.

It takes different pieces to build a good team. You have to let people contribute in the way they contribute best.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by New Era

If you ask Marc Savard I'm sure he'll tell you that the time he spent with the Flames under the Gilbert reign of error was probably the best thing for his career. He learned that he has to work hard to earn his position. That was very evident in Boston. Without that lessons he learned here and the change he showed in Atlanta he likely never would have got that chance in Boston.

Too bad it didn't benefit the Flames at all, which is what matters in the end.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Is this a serious post?

Yup.

[joe_mullen]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Actually, that makes perfect sense if Mac Savard is 20 years old in this example. Why?
- Because whether the Flames play Marc Savard or Clarke Wilm this year, they are still going to miss the playoffs.
- Because letting Marc Savard know that he has to work as hard as possible, will make Marc Savard a much better player in the long run
- Because even though Marc Savard half assing is still better than Clarke Wilm, the Flames will need him to be much better than just Clarke Wilm should Marc Savard ever hope to be a key part of bringing the cup to Calgary down the road.

Or it might shatter his confidence and stunt his growth in his formative pro hockey years.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Too bad it didn't benefit the Flames at all, which is what matters in the end.

Right, because the Flames lost Marc Sarvard because of how they treated him, not because of the economic environment back then.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by joe_mullen

Or it might shatter his confidence and stunt his growth in his formative pro hockey years.

If he's that fragile, he's done. Also, again, I'm sure the Flames brass and coaching staff have a better handle on things given they are there day in and day out. I'm sure they are also balancing out all these factors.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by New Era

The issue with Baertschi appears to be his willingness to give his all no matter what role he is given on the team. His comments support that. He only sees opportunities worthy of him when he ends up playing with skilled top six players. When he is given other roles he doesn't play with the same intensity or commitment. That is where his problems lay. He needs to play with the same fire no matter what situation he finds himself. He can lean something from Mr. Horak in that regard. This is where he projects the sense of entitlement and I suspect what has management a little peeved right now.

See, I don't see that. He like a playing in offensive roles, because he's an offensive player. If you went up to Regher and said "hey, we'd like you to put up some big offensive numbers this year" he's not going to respond all that well, because that's not his game. Sven isn't a grinder, he's not a banger, his defensive side isn't the reason we drafted him. There is no way in the world you would NOT be disappointed if as an offensive guy who can make some pretty great plays happen, you were put with a couple grinders.

Don't get me wrong, it's great Horak is willing to take whatever is given to him, but if you think that even now Horak has anywhere near the skill Baertschi does, you're out to lunch. Horak takes what he is given because he is a middle-skill guy, he doesn't do anything all that great. Sven has shown he has great offensive ability, so to be used in a way that doesn't allow him to show that would be frustrating in any situation.

Again, I'll compare Kane. Guy is widely praised right now, but does he play with a "fire" in his defensive end? No, he doesn't. He chases the puck a bit, tries to make a few plays, but there is a clear line between when Kane feels something is important and when he doesn't. If Baertschi can be half the player Kane is, we're gold. He doesn't need to show that "fire" in every situation, in fact, I'd be surprised if you could find more than a handful of offensive players that do.