Ongoing US Mass Shooting Thread

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

What will changing the laws do? Chicago has a ban on hand guns yet has one of the highest gun crime rates in the US. The law doesnt meat anything. Like as if someone would think twice about some gun law if they are going to shoot up a park.

Chicago has 10-20 gun shot murders per week end, and about 3x as many gun shot wounds, yet the strictest laws regarding gun ownership in the Country. Its not a law thing its a cultural thing.

He's talking about federal law, not municipal. One city outlawing guns has zero effect when you can just drive an hour to another city to grab your weapons. The only way for the US to really start combating this problem is to put some kind of federal restrictions on gun use, but that will likely never happen

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

What will changing the laws do? Chicago has a ban on hand guns yet has one of the highest gun crime rates in the US. The law doesnt meat anything. Like as if someone would think twice about some gun law if they are going to shoot up a park.

Chicago has 10-20 gun shot murders per week end, and about 3x as many gun shot wounds, yet the strictest laws regarding gun ownership in the Country. Its not a law thing its a cultural thing.

It's both, but a gang turf war isn't really part of the discussion. If we're including that then Calgary in 2005 (2006? Can't remember when all those gang shootings were happening) should get included too.

Less guns and harsher penalties for gun crime are needed if the culture is ever going to change.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

He's talking about federal law, not municipal. One city outlawing guns has zero effect when you can just drive an hour to another city to grab your weapons. The only way for the US to really start combating this problem is to put some kind of federal restrictions on gun use, but that will likely never happen

I don't think that will do anything unless you find a way to combat the underground gun market.

Make criminal punishment for gun use incredibly harsh, like life with no parole on the first offense.

Deal with the gang problem in a very public and messy manner.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't think that will do anything unless you find a way to combat the underground gun market.

Make criminal punishment for gun use incredibly harsh, like life with no parole on the first offense.

Deal with the gang problem in a very public and messy manner.

It seems like most of the shooters in these mass-shooting incidents get their guns through legal means. Or through family members who got them through legal means.

There will always be an underground market for guns, and going after gangs is a good thing, but right now getting a gun the legal way is way too easy. Make that close to impossible, and you're average disgruntled teen or employee would give up half way through the process. They might go and try to do the job with a knife, but that sure beats the hell out of doing it with a gun.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Table 5

It seems like most of the shooters in these mass-shooting incidents get their guns through legal means. Or through family members who got them through legal means.

There will always be an underground market for guns, and going after gangs is a good thing, but right now getting a gun the legal way is way too easy. Make that close to impossible, and you're average disgruntled teen or employee would give up half way through the process. They might go and try to do the job with a knife, but that sure beats the hell out of doing it with a gun.

Yeah, illegal guns don't really seem to be the means for these mass shootings at all. These people generally aren't criminals, they're fairly average people on the surface, and I'd guess like most fairly average people they don't really have much of an idea on how to go about accessing the illegal gun trade.

[CaptainCrunch]

I agree on the legal guns argument, I'm all for it. But for every mass shooting that we read about with a legally aquired hand gun there are lots of stories that don't get play that are carried out with blackmarket fire arms.

In order to deal with black market fire arms its also going to take a foreign policy shift.

The factories in China and other Asian nations make a fortune on guns that "Vanish" and find their way to docks in the United States.

As much as we do grouse about arms control, the cure for this situation just goes far beyond limiting legal fire arms sales.

I doubt that there is much that America can do about the poverty issues that make gang life so seductive, but I do think a much higher standard of education and opportunity needs to be implemented no matter what the cost is.

I did look at shock at some statistics earlier this week that showed some of the Easter Bloc states with extremely stringent gun control had incredibly high murder by fire arms rates, so I don't think its as simple as shutting down the legal sale of fire arms. But I do think its something that needs to be more heavily regulated.

I'm not a smart guy by any stretch of the imagination. But if I envisioned steps to a lower crime rate

1) get rid of all public carrying certifications except for law enforcement personal
2) Increase the cool off period between buying and receiving a gun, also require much deeper back ground checks. People with convictions or who have been diagnosed with a mental disorder can not buy guns ever.
3) reduce the availability of the type of guns that can be purchased. Handguns would have to go, as well as any weapon with more then a 3 round manual feed clip, anything that's semi automatic has a much higher burden of licensing to own.
4) Ramp up dock inspections, put pressure on foreign countries that have been busted with their weapons coming here through illegal channels
5) devise a gun section to the criminal code. Any crime that involves the use of a fire arm is a automatic life sentence with no chance of parole.
6) Increase funding to inner city schools
7) Increase funding to revitalization of inner cities
8) Increase scholarship opportunities across the board, self funded by universites
9) automatic life sentences for drug dealers who get caught dealing drugs to minors
10) automatic life sentences for gang related crimes.
11) Shut down gun shows

More

12) make gun owners insurance mandatory. If you don't own it your guns can be seized. Make the premiums expensive.
13) Annual background checks for gun owners, if you've been convicted of a felony, or if you've had any mental issues your guns are removed for safekeeping

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

What will changing the laws do? Chicago has a ban on hand guns yet has one of the highest gun crime rates in the US. The law doesnt meat anything. Like as if someone would think twice about some gun law if they are going to shoot up a park.

Chicago has 10-20 gun shot murders per week end, and about 3x as many gun shot wounds, yet the strictest laws regarding gun ownership in the Country. Its not a law thing its a cultural thing.

Chicago's gun laws are a complete joke, twice shot down in court.

What good is a weapons ban if everyone knows it bunk?

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by T@T

Chicago's gun laws are a complete joke, twice shot down in court.

What good is a weapons ban if everyone knows it bunk?

No kidding,

The state of Illinois would have to allow ordinary citizens to carry weapons under a federal appeals court ruling issued today, but the judges also gave lawmakers 180 days to put their own version of the law in place.

In a 2-1 decision that is a major victory for the National Rifle Association, the U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals said the state's ban on carrying a weapon in public is unconstitutional.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...t-david-sigale

[EYE_Overstand]

I know this is something that's been talked about, but why are people so against back ground checks? I know the wording about "everyone has the right to bear arms" but those were the days of muskets and those one shot guns no?

There are certain kind of weapons I don't believe normal citizens should be able to buy and I would ban selling guns at gun shows (as I read, that no checks are done then).


Anyways... I have no issue with guns... As long as the proper/ rigorous back ground checks are done and that crimes committed with guns are punished severely

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by EYE_Overstand

I know this is something that's been talked about, but why are people so against back ground checks? I know the wording about "everyone has the right to bear arms" but those were the days of muskets and those one shot guns no?

There are certain kind of weapons I don't believe normal citizens should be able to buy and I would ban selling guns at gun shows (as I read, that no checks are done then).


Anyways... I have no issue with guns... As long as the proper/ rigorous back ground checks are done and that crimes committed with guns are punished severely

The most ridiculous thing I've heard in awhile was on the Daily Show, where they were showing Fox News talking heads going on about how the military needs stricter background checks and how it shouldn't be so easy for someone to get one of those base badges that the shooter used. Those same talking heads will foam with rage at the mere mention of background checks for guns, and rally on and on about how important the constitution is and there can never be anything done to "infringe" upon the 2nd amendment. Yet again those same people, when talking about terrorism and the legitimately scary #### the US government is doing to spy on it's own citizens, then they'll say that it's ok ignore what the constitution says as long as it's to protect the country

It's absolutely maddening to listen to

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by EYE_Overstand

I know this is something that's been talked about, but why are people so against back ground checks?

because, A) that's not what it says in the Constitution, and #2, it encroaches on their freedom, which is what being a gun carrying American is all about.

[Shnabdabber]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Yes, it does. During the Taber school shooting in 1999, the gym teacher was able to tackle the shooter and wrestle him to the ground. He was able to do this when the shooter had to stop to reload. One person died that day; if the shooter had been equipped with high-capacity magazines, how many more deaths would there have been?

This isn't true.

But the Myers shooting illustrates how banning high capacity magazines and ar-15's will not stop deranged people from committing crimes.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Shnabdabber

This isn't true.

But the Myers shooting illustrates how banning high capacity magazines and ar-15's will not stop deranged people from committing crimes.

It can limit body count, I don't think you can disprove it with that example

[DuffMan]

Parts of Obamas memorial last night at the Navy Shipyards.

When I heard this part, I thought about what he was saying about normal, and how the NRA's main message is making guns in everydaylife normal, and, they are promoting making the new normal, with even more guns.

We can’t accept this. As Americans bound in grief and love, we must insist here today there is nothing normal about innocent men and women being gunned down where they work. There is nothing normal about our children being gunned down in their classrooms. There is nothing normal about children dying in our streets from stray bullets.

No other advanced nation endures this kind of violence — none. Here in America, the murder rate is three times what it is in other developed nations. The murder rate with guns is ten times what it is in other developed nations. And there is nothing inevitable about it. It comes about because of decisions we make or fail to make. And it falls upon us to make it different.

Sometimes it takes an unexpected voice to break through, to help remind
us what we know to be true. And we heard one of those voices last week. Dr. Janis Orlowski’s team at Medstar Washington Hospital Center treated the wounded. And in the midst of one of her briefings, she spoke with heartbreaking honesty as somebody who sees, daily and nightly, the awful carnage of so much violence. We are a great country, she said, but “there’s something wrong.” All these shootings, all these victims, she said, “this is not America.” “It is a challenge to all of us,” she said, and “we have to work together to get rid of this.”

And that’s the wisdom we should be taking away from this tragedy and so many others — not accepting these shootings as inevitable, but asking what can we do to prevent them from happening again and again and again. I've said before, we cannot stop every act of senseless violence. We cannot know every evil that lurks in troubled minds. But if we can prevent even one tragedy like this, save even one life, spare other families what these families are going through, surely we've got an obligation to try.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...#ixzz2fitWNGEc

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Shnabdabber

But the Myers shooting illustrates how banning high capacity magazines and ar-15's will not stop deranged people from committing crimes.

This is such a short-sighted argument. It's not about turning the world into a utopia, it's about mitigating damage. No law will ever deter crazy people from trying to do crazy things, and everyone knows that. But you don't see the value in someone being only able to harm 1 or 2 people, instead of 20, all because of the weapons they have access to?

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

Parts of Obamas memorial last night at the Navy Shipyards.

When I heard this part, I thought about what he was saying about normal, and how the NRA's main message is making guns in everydaylife normal, and, they are promoting making the new normal, with even more guns.



Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...#ixzz2fitWNGEc

Just reading the comments in that article shows you that there will never be a shift in Americans' attitude towards guns in our lifetime

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

Just reading the comments in that article shows you that there will never be a shift in Americans' attitude towards guns in our lifetime

I think America is basically a lost cause in terms gun control. It's really sad and scary, but I guess it what it is. All we can do is be happy we live in Canada.

[missdpuck]

I would agree, flameswin.

Just based on an unscientific sample-the sample being people I know-more intend to get guns than not.

What's real interesting is that a guy at work who is always talks a good anti-gun game actually goes to the shooting range once a week, and has a concealed carry permit. I was kinda shocked.

I wonder how many others are like him.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by missdpuck

I would agree, flameswin.

Just based on an unscientific sample-the sample being people I know-more intend to get guns than not.

What's real interesting is that a guy at work who is always talks a good anti-gun game actually goes to the shooting range once a week, and has a concealed carry permit. I was kinda shocked.

I wonder how many others are like him.

Buying guns and keeping them "just in case" strikes me as this realist, Cold War mentality that is so engrained in American culture it would need a proverbial nasty root canal to reform. However, this falls clearly in line with a national culture that focuses unhealthily on wealth accumulation, ignores obesity as a clear epidemic, refuses to understand the basic rights of universal health care, and supports you to sue your neighbor and squeeze every last dime out of 'em if you can. This is in addition to a government that spies on their own people and ignores their own people's cry to stop going to war all the time.

Gun control is just one of many issues that country faces, and I'm nervous to see how it will be in 50 years when I'm about to kick the bucket.

[Shnabdabber]

Originally Posted by Table 5

This is such a short-sighted argument. It's not about turning the world into a utopia, it's about mitigating damage. No law will ever deter crazy people from trying to do crazy things, and everyone knows that. But you don't see the value in someone being only able to harm 1 or 2 people, instead of 20, all because of the weapons they have access to?

My statement was directed more at the Myers situation than anything else. In that specific case not a damn thing you could limit/restrict would've stopped what happened. Besides the fact that rimfire rifles in Canada have no magazine limits, crazy is as crazy does and those people need help before they wig out and kill innocent civilians.

Glad Canada doesn't have the murder the US has, but it will be a huge fight to ban or restrict anything south of the border.