[OOT] Melee between Toronto and Buffalo

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by New Era

You're right, the Scotts of the game should not exist. But as long as the agitator exists and other goons are used by every team in the league the Scotts will continue to be there.

This does not make the situation somehow alright or acceptable.

Originally Posted by New Era

...And don't try and tell me you do not see the value in these guys. All you have to do is look at the difference between the Flames pre-McGratton last season and then post-McGratton. Night and day.

No, I don't see any value in these guys, and I am not convinced that having Brian McGratton on the ice creates such a demonstrable difference in the play of the team. Again, demonstrating this one way or the other would require a controlled, systematic study which to my knowledge has not yet been conducted. This is actually something very interesting that I would very much like to see worked out. It is something that has been repeated for so long, we all just accept that it is true. But with how the game has changed, and with how fighting in the NHL has evolved, does it REALLY still make a positive difference? It used to once, but does it still? How do you really know without carefully sifting through the data?

Originally Posted by New Era

...when you move back to Canada or the US don't attend games. Don't watch games, don't have anything to do with the NHL until they do something about this issue...

That's one approach. Heaven forbid that I raise questions and make public my feelings in the meantime.

Originally Posted by New Era

...I personally recognize this is part of the game and is not going to change soon. I don't condone it, but I recognize there is a reason for its existence and I accept it...

Surely you are bright enough to recognise the self-defeating premises in your above statement. To put an absurd spin on it:

"I personally recognize that the disenfranchisement of women and minorities is part of our society and is not going to change soon. I don't condone it, but I recognize there is a reason for its existence and I accept it."

...or rather less absurd...

"I personally recognize that playing without helmets is part of the game and is not going to change soon. I don't condone it, but I recognize there is a reason for its existence and I accept it."

Originally Posted by New Era

I agree with what you are saying but the reality is that fighting is good for the league.

Prove it and I will believe you.

Originally Posted by New Era

The teams know it and the league knows it. I don't see any trend where goons are falling out of favor.

Maybe they do, or maybe the teams and the League are blindly reaffirming a part of the culture of hockey irrationally, because they don't know any differently; "tradition" and all that. Maybe they don't really know anything, and are making these sorts of decisions based on hunches and intuitions that were forged in an era in which fighting DID have a place, but has now become an isolated, tangential side-attraction that has no bearing on the outcome of the games.

[FanningTheFlames]

Did anyone else not notice that Scott immediately turned to the wave of 2-3 mlf players that swarmed him and then Kessel took out his ankles from behind?

Is that not also suspension worthy in some people's minds?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I will ask you this about the bolded since others have been asked who had the same idea but cant answer...

How?

How do you get rid of any "type" of player? You have to allow teams to sign and draft whomever they like. They are the ones on the hook for the paychecks, not the league or anyone else.

So unless you ban fighting from the game which will never happen at this point, then there must be some way to do it. I cannot fathom what that is.

Jay Feaster was just on Hockey Central and was aksed point blank if there is still a roll for these players in the game and he emphatically stated "yes there is".

I'd say that once there's a will to get rid of those players they could easily be legislated out of the game. Hefty punishments for players who accumulate multiple fighting majors would be the most obvious way. It could also be done in a more underhanded fashion by simply treating them more harshly in regards to officiating or other punishment. Not exactly above board, but not really unheard of. That said, I don't think there's enough desire to have these guys made extinct to push something like that through, at least not yet.

[rohara66]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

There is NO WAY in flipping hell Kessel should get suspended.It's not like he initiated it.

What if Scott jumped Sven? I have no problems with what Kessel did. I respect him more for it.

I can't believe no Sabre jumped out of the bench after Clarkson left. Might as well..

Was about to post the exact same comment.

If this was anyone other that Kessel and the Leafs, nobody would have any problems with the hacks. And for the record I hate the Leafs.

But imagine that was Sven getting jumped by some oger AHL goon, like anyone would have a problem with it then. Too bad Kessel didn't break Scott's ankle.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I will ask you this about the bolded since others have been asked who had the same idea but cant answer...

How?

I don't know.

Originally Posted by transplant99

How do you get rid of any "type" of player? You have to allow teams to sign and draft whomever they like. They are the ones on the hook for the paychecks, not the league or anyone else.

So unless you ban fighting from the game which will never happen at this point, then there must be some way to do it. I cannot fathom what that is.

I think that it could happen through a ban on fighting, or at least by way of a dramatic change to the current rules that govern fights. I can't say I know what that would look like, but I am getting to the point at which I can no longer simply accept that it can't be done.

Originally Posted by transplant99

Jay Feaster was just on Hockey Central and was aksed point blank if there is still a roll for these players in the game and he emphatically stated "yes there is".

With all due respect to Jay Feaster, I think he's wrong. There is a role for these players because the League continues to sustain them, but I'm not convinced that they are in any way still necessary.

[MissTeeks]

Bill Hoppe‏@BillHoppeNHL48m
John Scott said he would've went after anyone beside him. #Sabres

Bill Hoppe‏@BillHoppeNHL25m
#Sabres John Scott: "I don’t know what their coach had in mind. I wasn’t going to try to hurt him. I was just trying to send a message."

Bill Hoppe‏@BillHoppeNHL22m
#Sabres John Scott: "I’ve never seen a stick swing like that. He’s got to do what he’s got to do. So it was an even fight, I guess."

[rohara66]

Originally Posted by MissTeeks

Bill Hoppe‏@BillHoppeNHL48m
John Scott said he would've went after anyone beside him. #Sabres

Bill Hoppe‏@BillHoppeNHL25m
#Sabres John Scott: "I don’t know what their coach had in mind. I wasn’t going to try to hurt him. I was just trying to send a message."

Bill Hoppe‏@BillHoppeNHL22m
#Sabres John Scott: "I’ve never seen a stick swing like that. He’s got to do what he’s got to do. So it was an even fight, I guess."

Me play hockey.... me fight... me so tough.

What a clown.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

There is NO WAY in flipping hell Kessel should get suspended.It's not like he initiated it.

What if Scott jumped Sven? I have no problems with what Kessel did. I respect him more for it.

I can't believe no Sabre jumped out of the bench after Clarkson left. Might as well..

Disagree. Stick work like that has no business in the game, regardless of the reason.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by MissTeeks

Bill Hoppe‏@BillHoppeNHL22m
#Sabres John Scott: "I’ve never seen a stick swing like that. He’s got to do what he’s got to do. So it was an even fight, I guess."

I can't be the only one who finds this last comment extremely disturbing.

[WilderPegasus]

Originally Posted by rohara66

Me play hockey.... me fight... me so tough.

What a clown.

Why? Because he's getting paid good money to fill a role that NHL teams are looking for?

He's just doing what his team wants. In this situation he didn't cheap shot any Leafs.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by WilderPegasus

Why? Because he's getting paid good money to fill a role that NHL teams are looking for?

He's just doing what his team wants. In this situation he didn't cheap shot any Leafs.

Which is precisely why this discussion should be about the systemic problems beyond merely who was culpable and who ought or ought not be suspended.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by fotze

...Extremely disturbing? No, you would be the only one. Extremely disturbing is cannibalism or puppy rape. That was not extremely disturbing.

A little disturbing?

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

Disagree. Stick work like that has no business in the game, regardless of the reason.

desperate times calls for desperate measures. Don't want to be pole axed like an oak tree, go after Orr.

Scott was lucky Kessel didn't aim for his head.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by FanningTheFlames

It seems in both slashes Kessel was going for the ankle. Definite intent to injure.

What do you figure John Scott's intent was when he jumped Kessel?


Good on Kessel. I gained a lot of respect for him after witnessing this.

[FanningTheFlames]

Originally Posted by fotze

If something 'seems' then it can't be definite.

If I had said "obviously" would it have made any difference?

[rohara66]

Originally Posted by WilderPegasus

Why? Because he's getting paid good money to fill a role that NHL teams are looking for?

He's just doing what his team wants. In this situation he didn't cheap shot any Leafs.

I have no problem with the goon role... but since when was it ok for a goon to go after the other teams all star player in a pre-season game.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

What do you figure John Scott's intent was when he jumped Kessel?


Good on Kessel. I gained a lot of respect for him after witnessing this.

I'm going to have to go with

C) Put him in a head lock and give him a noogie.


and this type of line brawls is EXACTLY what the NHL needs to drum up excitement. 5 pages and 260 for a Sabres/Leafs pre season game! hahahhaa

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

desperate times calls for desperate measures. Don't want to be pole axed like an oak tree, go after Orr.

Scott was lucky Kessel didn't aim for his head.

So is Kessel....if he had, he would have been given the year or more....rightfully.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by transplant99

So is Kessel....if he had, he would have been given the year or more....rightfully.

Self defense dude. If he hit him in the head he prob would have gotten 5 games though.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

Self defense dude. If he hit him in the head he prob would have gotten 5 games though.

He may get 5 games NOW....and self defense is pretty hard to justify when the second swing was from behind and Scott engaged with another player...then the "spear" coming after all was said and done and Scott being held by the linesman.

Kessell is a complete pansie in this scenario....after the initial altercation anyhow, and someone who Buffalo wont forget every time they play this season. Gonna be fun to watch.