[OOT] Melee between Toronto and Buffalo

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is all the more idiotic when factoring in that Scott will get nothing beyond time served. 5 mins for fighting, a 10 min misconduct, and an additional + 2 for instigating. Two impact players will miss significant, meaningful game-time for responding to verbal and physical threats from a roster-member whose ONLY purpose is to promote physical and psychological intimidation.

Buffalo should be laughing all the way to the bank with this result, and it only serves to emphasise how lopsided and backwards the NHL is with regards to the place and purpose of violence in sports.

How is this lopsided or backwards? There is fighting in hockey, Kessel obviously instigated, Scott responded and Kessel didn't like the response.
The Leafs come off looking disgusting in this:
Kessel instigates with a goon
Kessel slashes Scott twice
Two Leafs jump Scott
Clarkson leaves bench to engage Scott
Bernier engages Miller (for what reason, exactly?)
Multiple members of the Leafs bench taunts Scott as he's being restrained.
Kessel jabs Scott and goes in for the last word

Lopsided and backwards? Please. The Leafs are the offenders here. Scott is a goon, and his place in the game is questionable, but he's not some unstoppable monster that could have killed Kessel. What Kessel did was pathetic, and the response of his team was equally pathetic. Kessel has at least 20 pounds on Flynn, and nobody had a problem with the fleecing Kessel gave him.

I'm not justifying the start of the brawl, nor the Buffalo Sabres role in it, but anyone who paints Buffalo in any light comparable to that of Toronto has blinders on. Multiple Leafs performed much worse offences than anything Scott did, but he simply gets crapped on because he's a goon. If Myers dropped the gloves in the same way, I guarantee the reaction to this is completely different.

[Vulcan]

I was watching the game on TV and that's what I saw. Kessel started it and didn't like the result. I'd have liked to see Scott give him a couple. Guy acts like an jerk and thinks you can't touch me, I'm a star and way smaller.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by strombad

How is this lopsided or backwards? There is fighting in hockey, Kessel obviously instigated, Scott responded and Kessel didn't like the response...

I think that this interpretation of the events actually quite clearly illustrates precisely why this is lopsided and backwards. Later you state that "Scott is a goon, and his place in the game is questionable," and I think that this is actually at the heart of the issue here. My problem with all of this is as follows:

1. Why is Scott in the game in the first place?

Players like Scott are becoming more and more unnecessary because they are becoming less and less effective. The only time Scott sees ice-time is NOT to make a hockey play, but rather to "send a message". Usually that message ends up in the delivery of a quasi-orchestrated exchange of blows between him and another useless player with no skill set beyond his ability to box on skates. It is predictable and arguably, completely ineffective, since the end result always sees the two combatants in the penalty box, and then firmly stapled to the bench. Do you honestly believe that the 5 mins average ice-time that a player like Scott logs per game makes any discernible difference at all to the outcome? More often than not, these sorts of players who are not good enough to play NHL hockey end up costing their teams possession time, zone-starts, and points because of their inability to follow or keep up with the play.

But this isn't really what happened last night...

2. Why did Scott attack Kessel?

"Kessel obviously instigated"?? Really??!! I am not sure how you can determine that based on the video from the game, as I am assuming you were not present on the ice to hear and witness the exchange between Scott and Kessel in person. From the first YouTube video posted in this thread we see Kessel say something to Scott, and a sudden retaliation from Scott. A lengthier account of the lead-up to the altercation includes mention from the commentators that Scott was engaging the Toronto bench, then that he was lined up on the ice (again, why is he there in the first place?), and you can then clearly see that there he also engages in a verbal exchange with Kessel. How can anyone really determine the instigator in this instance? Given the sort of player Scott is; given the fact that his ONLY function in a game is to "send a message", then it is also probably not too far off to suggest that his very presence on the ice is itself an instigation. After all, he's certainly not there to play hockey (since he can't play NHL hockey).

Did Kessel goad him? I expect that he probably did, but it is patently naïve to ignore the obvious here: that Scott had predetermined to start an altercation—perhaps not necessarily with Kessel, but pretty clearly with someone. Kessel confirms as much in his statement following the game that Scott had verbally threatened him (why the hell is he yapping with Kessel in the first place, if not to threaten him)?

3. Why did Kessel and the rest of the Leafs respond as they did?

I should be clear at the outset that I in no way endorse the ensuing stickwork, taunts and altercations, and I AM NOT IN ANY WAY SYMPATHETIC with the Leafs in this. Having said that, the initial reaction is quite obvious and to be expected. Kessel was scared to death, and his team-mates figured a response of some sort was immediately warranted. (As an aside, given Kessel's obviously panic induced reaction, I find it absurd to label him as the instigator in this. This would in some way assume that he intended to fight with Scott, which seems pretty clearly not to have been the case). Right or wrong, the incident would not have occurred if Scott had not been on the ice in the first place. We coming back to this fundamental point.

So, how is this incident a sign of the lopsided, backwards thinking of the NHL with regards to the place and purpose of violence in sports? Pretty simply, it encourages the participation in sport of players without the requisite skills to impact the game in any meaningful way, and whose sole presence is intended to induce physical and psychological intimidation. It promotes bullying at the expense of a competition of skills—the skilled players will endure the weightier punishments while the bully receives none. It is an implicit endorsement of barbarism by which young men are pressured to sacrifice their own mental health and long-term well-being for a few minutes of fame and fleeting fiscal reward.

If John Scott could play hockey, then by all means he should play. But because he can't, he does not belong on the ice in the NHL.

[Stampede2TheCup]

[Machiavelli]

Scott is obviously a useless goon but I didn't see any reason for the slash or spear from Kessel, as Scott was already taken care of.

And....LOL, Miller.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It promotes bullying at the expense of a competition of skills

Oh for Heaven's sake. It's the NHL, not middle school gym class.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

1. Why is Scott in the game in the first place?

Because every team has guys whose job it is to set the tone. Whether that be to be a #### disturber or to be an enforcer each player has their role. We saw last season with the Flames just how small a team can play when the hired gun is not available and how ineffective they can be with out that #### disturber. Scott was there to do his job and send a message.

The question you should be asking is what was Kessel doing out there? Leafs had last change and Kessel was put out there for a reason. Why?

Players like Scott are becoming more and more unnecessary because they are becoming less and less effective.

Yet teams continue to go out of their way to find them and give them roster spots. What is happening is that teams are now trying to find guys that can intimidate and contribute to some position in some meaningful way. The Flames didn't draft Kanzig because they saw the second coming of Chara.

The only time Scott sees ice-time is NOT to make a hockey play, but rather to "send a message". Usually that message ends up in the delivery of a quasi-orchestrated exchange of blows between him and another useless player with no skill set beyond his ability to box on skates. It is predictable and arguably, completely ineffective, since the end result always sees the two combatants in the penalty box, and then firmly stapled to the bench.

Exactly, so why is Kessel put out there next to him?

2. Why did Scott attack Kessel?

That's the big question, but based on the jawing before the faceoff I would say something was said by Kessel. Scott didn't hesitate and Kessel was ready with lumberjack routine all too quickly.

"Kessel obviously instigated"?? Really??!! I am not sure how you can determine that based on the video from the game, as I am assuming you were not present on the ice to hear and witness the exchange between Scott and Kessel in person.

Seems that you're trying to say that you were on the ice to make the opposite claim. The only thing we can go on is the video and the results. It appears from the video that Kessel enjoyed poking, and slashing, the bear so to speak. We already concluded the tough guys and #### disturbers send a message, well so do the actions of the other players out there. You're ignoring the actions of Kessel.

Did Kessel goad him? I expect that he probably did, but it is patently naïve to ignore the obvious here: that Scott had predetermined to start an altercation—perhaps not necessarily with Kessel, but pretty clearly with someone. Kessel confirms as much in his statement following the game that Scott had verbally threatened him (why the hell is he yapping with Kessel in the first place, if not to threaten him)?

You're not asking the right question again. Toronto had last change. Why was Kessel out there? Carlyle knew what was happening when Scott was sent out there. Why did he do what he did? Couldn't be that Carlyle is, and always has been, a world class punk and this was just another way of cementing that reputation? Couldn't be that he was trying to get his players wound up and intentionally put his "star" opposite the goon waiting for fireworks to ensue? Based on the abuse Carlyle took all summer for his team not being tough enough this was a great start to dispelling that myth early. Mission accomplished by Carlyle.

[QUOTE]3. Why did Kessel and the rest of the Leafs respond as they did?

Extension of their coach?

If John Scott could play hockey, then by all means he should play. But because he can't, he does not belong on the ice in the NHL.

I don't disagree with you on the goon thing. They should be gone from the game. But the reason they still exist is so little punks that act like Kessel have to pay for their actions.at some point. I don't agree with it, but it is part of the game and part of the code the players follow. I still want to know what the hell was going through Carlyle's head when he made the line match up he did. He held last change and put out the players he wanted. He obviously was hoping for some sort of outcome.

Another thing I found interesting in watching the fights was the number of Buffalo players that lost their lids when the mayhem broke out. It was like the Leafs players had been schooled to get the helmet off first before you do anything else. Just an observation.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by bax

Can't believe people are ripping into Kessel for this. A guy who is only out there to fight tells a superstar "I'm going to jump you" what was Kessel supposed to do? Scott deserves more than some chops to his shin pads. Gutless by him, and people are saying that Kessel speared him? He tapped him with the blade of his stick, come on. Not a very smart thing to do if you're Kessel, but I have no problem with him embarrassing that goon even more.

All Kessel had to do was just tie up with Scott on the initial flurry, and stay inside Scott's reach and then go for the take down.

End Result: Kessel looks like a hero instead of a baby.

[zukes]

My take:

1) The first fight had an unfortunate ending, but was two guys willingly fighting, if any the Buffalo guy appears to have started it. The Leafs guy apears to have been swinging a second left as they were falling and unfortunately lands with his forearm onto the Sabre's head and drives it to the ice. I do not think there was intent.

2) John Scott/Buffalo coach should know better. Go after someone who at least will throw a punch. I understand the logic behind Scott being out there, but pick a better opponent.

3) Scott clearly says that he is going after Kessel, Kessel figures that it'll be a shoving match so throws a glove in Scott's face and then poops his pants when he sees Scott intends on caving in his head. I am fine with the first slash and kessel not fighting. Heat of the moment, protecting himself. The second slash, a little more cowardly, somewhat forgivable given what has just happened and not as viscious. The spear, while clearly an attempt to annoy rather than injure is just as dumb as Scott trying to fight Kessel. All Kessel is doing is trying to get Scott to do something stupid and it makes him look like a ######. Kind of surprised Scott had the restraint to not do anything actually.

4) I am fine with Clarkson jumping on the ice, as has been said in here, i would be fine with a Flame doing the same in a similar situation. Look who else was on the ice for the Leafs, Bozek, MacWilliam, Ashton. Orr and McLaren were not even dressed for the game (clearly would have fallen to them to do so instead).

Clarkson gets 10 as it is a clear cut rule, though I think there should be reviews allowed in a situation like this to lower it.

Kessel would have escaped suspension likely if not for the spear, now the the second slash has to be looked at as well, where they could have probably glossed it over without the spear.

Scott did nothing really against the rules as they stand right now. I am so torn on the idea of a goon these days. I am all for guys who protect their team mates from some idiot hunting people, but that is it. The staged fight shoudl be a thing of the past. My opinion of fighting in hockey is the spontaneous fight should stay and the one to settle a score (Claude Lemieux-Darren McCarty) should stay. Even the ones where a guy takes a huge run at someone is fine with me to a point. Everything else should be gone.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by Poe969

He's a leaf now, maybe 3 games.

Oh yeah, Leafs get so many favourse

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by diane_phaneuf

Kessel with the two hand slash and then spearing Scott though was high comedy

he was all ready skating away as he did both

He should have fought that plug is what you're saying?

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by New Era

Kessel should get about 20 games for that gong show. One big two hander as he runs away and then another when Scott is engaged with another player. Then to top it all off he re-engages Scott when things start to settle down and spears him. Gutless stuff.

20 games? LOL.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by savemedrzaius

I've never seen Kessel do anything remotely dirty as a Leaf. I think this was more of a "I don't want to die" self-defence move. No suspension.

There is no way you can let it go without a suspension of some sort, regardless of why he did it.

He could have just turtled if he didn't want to fight Scott, he didn't have to take 2 huge slashes at him and then give him a little push with his blade when Scott was tied up with Clarkson and a linesman.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

The people who dislike fighting in hockey grind my gears immensely. Don't like it, don't watch. It's part of the game. If a fight breaks out, do as Don Cherry says and go have a nice cup of tea and turn the TV off. Had to get that off my chest. As for what happened, what Scott did was stupid, but Kessel should have been a man and fought, even if he knew he would lose.

This is just silly. He could have been killed.

[Flames89]

Just watched it for the first time.
Kessel should get a game or two for the second slash. However, the first one was self preservation against a towering thug who totally instigated. The spear seemed more like a tap.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by spiteface

sorry don't understand neanderthal

fyi tennis >>> hockey

lol!!!!!!!

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

There is no way you can let it go without a suspension of some sort, regardless of why he did it.

He could have just turtled if he didn't want to fight Scott, he didn't have to take 2 huge slashes at him and then give him a little push with his blade when Scott was tied up with Clarkson and a linesman.

He just has to tell Shanny I thought Scott was a lodge pole pine. It was a little chilly out on the ice was thinking a little team bonding around the camp fire was in order and then we would practice our spear chucking a bit later once we had a few pops against the same pine tree we used for burning.

In all seriousness 2 - 4 games served at the start of regular season. Leaning more towards 2 due to lack of history.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Flames89

Just watched it for the first time.
Kessel should get a game or two for the second slash. However, the first one was self preservation against a towering thug who totally instigated. The spear seemed more like a tap.

Yeah, if the league suspends Kessel for any extended period of time, all it's saying to the goons of the league is that it's open season on ACTUAL hockey players.

What else was Kessel going to do? Scott is a goof for going after him.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

This is just silly. He could have been killed.

Oh please. He wears a helmet with a visor, he's a grown man. Scott isn't some scary monster. There have been multiple guys the same size as Kessel that have fought Scott and guess what? They've all lived to tell the tale.

This "could have been killed" nonsense needs to stop. Kessel isn't even the smallest player Scott would have ever put a beating on, he certainly would have been just fine.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by strombad

Oh please. He wears a helmet with a visor, he's a grown man. Scott isn't some scary monster. There have been multiple guys the same size as Kessel that have fought Scott and guess what? They've all lived to tell the tale.

This "could have been killed" nonsense needs to stop. Kessel isn't even the smallest player Scott would have ever put a beating on, he certainly would have been just fine.

Yes he is. He's twice Phil's size.