Our preseason goaltending situation

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by FlamesAllTheWay

Agreed learning from your mistakes is a good teaching mechanism. However, even though they're 26 - 27 years old they are still pretty much rookies at the NHL level. And goaltenders traditionally take longer to develop.



It's not so much fear of getting benched in favour of MacDonald. I have no doubt Ramo will be the starter when the regular season begins. And there will be some hiccups and mistakes right from the get go and that's to be expected.

It's when things may start snowballing for either euro goalie that MacDonald enters the picture. Some guys might be okay getting lit up on a regular basis and can chalk it up as a learning experience. Some guys don't respond so well and it can ruin their development. Again, even though these guys are 26 - 27 year olds they are still developing and have much to learn at an NHL level. We don't exactly have a top end group of players in front of them either to help ease them into the NHL style game.

To me it's the same as why we have guys like Stempniak, Cammy, Stajan, etc here. They likely aren't part of the future but it prevents us from having to throw Baertschi, Monahan, etc, up against the opposing teams best players night after night even though they aren't ready to handle the workload.



Given we aren't going to be cup contenders anytime soon I just don't see the rush to throw both guys up against top end NHL talent on a regular basis if they show signs they aren't ready to handle it.

Sure, if one or both of them performs right away by all means keep them rolling and that is likely the intent of the Flames. If they start faltering though then at least we have some insurance step in and take some of the pressure off while they (hopefully) continue to develop.

I just hope that the default is see what Ramo and Berra can do before using MacDonald to absorb the blowouts (because it's not like he would be preventing them). Fear of what might happen shouldn't prevent them from getting a chance, and that is what I am worried will happen.

If by mid-December things are so bad that our goalies are losing confidence in their abilities, then I wouldn't care if they bring MacDonald up. I don't want to see a young player buried though. Most goalies don't put up great numbers in their first NHL seasons.

[Enoch Root]

I think MacDonald needs to be here for the stability factor.

Everyone else will get their chance though.

[MrCallahan]

Originally Posted by Itse

I'm hoping Berra stays. I just have a good feeling about that guy.

Although those feelings mostly get it wrong

I have the same feelings as you, something keeps telling me he's going to be surprising a few people.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I just hope that the default is see what Ramo and Berra can do before using MacDonald to absorb the blowouts (because it's not like he would be preventing them). Fear of what might happen shouldn't prevent them from getting a chance, and that is what I am worried will happen.

If by mid-December things are so bad that our goalies are losing confidence in their abilities, then I wouldn't care if they bring MacDonald up. I don't want to see a young player buried though. Most goalies don't put up great numbers in their first NHL seasons.

Oh I totally agree. I think both should get a fair shake and I do believe they'll get it. The Flames know what situation the team is in right now and these guys will get every chance to succeed as a starter for the team. Might not happen immediately for a guy like Berra but he'll get his shot.

Ultimately though both guys are more or less complete question marks at the NHL level. It's not like they are young and totally inexperienced at a pro level of hockey, so there are more positive signs that at least one of them will pan out vs. a completely inexperienced rookie goaltender. But they are still relative unknowns and that's where I see the value in having MacDonald around for the time being.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I think MacDonald needs to be here for the stability factor.

Everyone else will get their chance though.

If there's one thing I've always sucked at on message boards it's summarizing my thoughts into one or two sentences vs. a paragraph or two

[FAN]

Let's face it, not every job is up for grabs and all the talk about earning your minutes will inevitably end up being just talk in certain situations.

The fact of the matter is that Feaster all but anointed Ramo as the Flames' #1 goalie. He was signed to a two-year one-way contract at a $2.75M cap hit (money that isn't typical for a backup goalie). His spot on the team isn't up for grabs and why should it be? You can talk about earning minutes all you want, but the club made the investment and leap of faith, to change your mind about a player after a preseason game or two would simply be stupid.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Hopefully this is where Burke comes into play as this team will need the absolute best goaltending possible to be competitive and politics can't come into play. For all we know Ramo was the player that Jay liked that Burke didn't.

I don't know about that. Burke's track record for acquiring defensemen is very good but his track record for acquiring and evaluating goaltending is simply terrible.

[TheDebaser]

Originally Posted by FAN

Let's face it, not every job is up for grabs and all the talk about earning your minutes will inevitably end up being just talk in certain situations.

The fact of the matter is that Feaster all but anointed Ramo as the Flames' #1 goalie. He was signed to a two-year one-way contract at a $2.75M cap hit (money that isn't typical for a backup goalie). His spot on the team isn't up for grabs and why should it be? You can talk about earning minutes all you want, but the club made the investment and leap of faith, to change your mind about a player after a preseason game or two would simply be stupid.



I don't know about that. Burke's track record for acquiring defensemen is very good but his track record for acquiring and evaluating goaltending is simply terrible.

I don't get that logic. We're spending a set amount of cash on two goalies. We will not be paying any more or any less regardless of who plays how much. Why wouldn't we ice the best team possible? If Berra kicks ass benching him saves us no money. It's like not playing with your expensive toy because your cheap one's way better.

[MissTeeks]

Daren Millard‏@darenmillard55s
With Jay Feaster on hc@noon, sure sounds like the goalie battle is a two horse race. Team not overwhelmed by the shape of Joey Macdonald


That's not really what he said, Feaster said they thought MacDonald would have gone to another level in his fitness this summer compared to last year to take over the starting spot, not that he was out of shape.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by MissTeeks

Daren Millard‏@darenmillard55s
With Jay Feaster on hc@noon, sure sounds like the goalie battle is a two horse race. Team not overwhelmed by the shape of Joey Macdonald


That's not really what he said, Feaster said they thought MacDonald would have gone to another level in his fitness this summer compared to last year to take over the starting spot, not that he was out of shape.

What does he really expect from a 33 year old goalie though? At that point, he is what he is. He was never likely to bring it to another level any more than he was in past seasons when he would typically start the season on waivers.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I don't think Gillies, or Brossiot will be ready until they are 24ish so that is 4-5 years until one is a starter. They might be good enough in a year or 2 but I am not sold on it. If our goalies are the worst in the league upgrading at the position would be a wise move. A guy like Riemer who is in his mid-20's would be a decent stop gap if he becomes available.

From what Caged Great has been saying about Gillies, I do not think he is going to follow the typical mold of needing to wait the standard 4-5 years it seems to take to develop a goalie. I could see him making it to the NHL at 21 or 22 (currently 19).

Originally Posted by FlamesAllTheWay

As you alluded to though, and what I think is the most likely scenario, MacDonald will be the "backup/buffer/insurance" to Ramo as the starter. It will take a bit of time for Ramo to re-adjust to the North American game. Then hopefully pan out as a starting goaltender. However, while he is adjusting and/or if he doesn't develop into a starter at least we have MacDonald around as a stop-gap while we look to other options. Berra being at the top of that list I would guess.

You are making it sound like Ramo has never played in North America before. Sure, its been a few years but he does already have 125 games played in both the NHL and AHL.

Berra doesn't have that experience but from the sounds of things he has the ability to adjust if we have the patience to play him through it.

I appreciate what MacDonald brings as a stable backup goalie that can eat NHL games as needed but I would definitely offer him to the Pens for a draft pick to cover for their injuries and just platoon Ramo and Berra through their adjustment period.

[Stay Golden]

MacDonald
Ramo
Berra

In that order is how the goalies will go this year.
I think all 3 will get some games.
MacDonald with 50% of the starts Ramo with 30% and Berra with the other 20%
depending on injuries and how well or poorly Ramo plays.
The coaches hopefully do not play a collapsing D like past seasons or the Flames will get lit up all year.
No Kipper they will have to defend the blue line.

[Soliak]

Ramo's new mask is sick.











http://ingoalmag.com/masks/karri-ram...w-flames-mask/

[Fan in Exile]

Don't understand why people are so sceptical about Ramo. Of course he will have to prove himself but there's plenty of reason to expect him to be good. I'm optimistic that he will be a keeper.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

MacDonald
Ramo
Berra

In that order is how the goalies will go this year.
I think all 3 will get some games.
MacDonald with 50% of the starts Ramo with 30% and Berra with the other 20%
depending on injuries and how well or poorly Ramo plays.
The coaches hopefully do not play a collapsing D like past seasons or the Flames will get lit up all year.
No Kipper they will have to defend the blue line.

No way McDonald get 50% unless they have an injury.

My guess would be:

Ramo 55%
MacDonald 25%
Berra 20%

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by Wolven

You are making it sound like Ramo has never played in North America before. Sure, its been a few years but he does already have 125 games played in both the NHL and AHL.

True enough (admittedly I thought he had played less than that). To play devils advocate though, it was 5 years ago and his numbers were slightly below average at best over the course of his 3 seasons. At both levels.

Berra doesn't have that experience but from the sounds of things he has the ability to adjust if we have the patience to play him through it.

Agreed. And I'm sure the Flames do have the patience and he will get his shot. Even if it's not right off the bat.

I appreciate what MacDonald brings as a stable backup goalie that can eat NHL games as needed but I would definitely offer him to the Pens for a draft pick to cover for their injuries and just platoon Ramo and Berra through their adjustment period.

If I'm reading you correctly it seems like you're saying Ramo and Berra's successful adjustment is an inevitability? If so I would have to disagree. There are positive signs for sure but there's no guarantee either guy does it right away, let alone at all.

As of now, for me, Ramo's 5 years removed from a few seasons of average to below average play at the NHL level. Berra has zero NHL experience. Both are pretty much unknowns, Ramo a little less so (looked good tonight, first time I've seen him play).

So enter MacDonald. If Ramo and/or Berra make the quick adjustment then by all means roll with them. If they don't though then what's the rush to continue to try to ram rod one or both into a starters role? If they start to falter then MacDonald is there to take some of the pressure off.

Again, some guys do well getting thrown right into a steep learning curve and some not so much. MacDonalds here for some insurance and I think the Flames agree or why else would they have bothered to bring him back?

Like it or not, over the past 5 years MacDonalds the only proven NHL goalie we have. At the very least he can hopefully help with the development/transition of Ramo and Berra. At best he might become a tradeable commodity, as you said.

[DeluxeMoustache]

MacDonald's positioning and rebound control has not shown to be good enough. Conditioning below expectations does not help him grow beyond the projection of career backup. Sad that he did not recognize the opportunity and seize it

[TheDebaser]

Originally Posted by FlamesAllTheWay

True enough (admittedly I thought he had played less than that). To play devils advocate though, it was 5 years ago and his numbers were slightly below average at best over the course of his 3 seasons. At both levels.



Agreed. And I'm sure the Flames do have the patience and he will get his shot. Even if it's not right off the bat.



If I'm reading you correctly it seems like you're saying Ramo and Berra's successful adjustment is an inevitability? If so I would have to disagree. There are positive signs for sure but there's no guarantee either guy does it right away, let alone at all.

As of now, for me, Ramo's 5 years removed from a few seasons of average to below average play at the NHL level. Berra has zero NHL experience. Both are pretty much unknowns, Ramo a little less so (looked good tonight, first time I've seen him play).

So enter MacDonald. If Ramo and/or Berra make the quick adjustment then by all means roll with them. If they don't though then what's the rush to continue to try to ram rod one or both into a starters role? If they start to falter then MacDonald is there to take some of the pressure off.

Again, some guys do well getting thrown right into a steep learning curve and some not so much. MacDonalds here for some insurance and I think the Flames agree or why else would they have bothered to bring him back?

Like it or not, over the past 5 years MacDonalds the only proven NHL goalie we have. At the very least he can hopefully help with the development/transition of Ramo and Berra. At best he might become a tradeable commodity, as you said.

It's not entirely like that. They've seen the three play in camp. If Berra and Ramo are both hands down better goalies in camp it's not like they'll show up to a game and forget how to play hockey. Not saying this will happen, but remember that 04 kipper had very little nhl experience when he came over too. Hell, no one on the planet has nhl experience until they start playing in the nhl. It's not as important as you make it seem. We should go with our two best goalies, this just makes sense to me.

[gunnner]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

MacDonald
Ramo
Berra

In that order is how the goalies will go this year.
I think all 3 will get some games.
MacDonald with 50% of the starts Ramo with 30% and Berra with the other 20%
depending on injuries and how well or poorly Ramo plays.
The coaches hopefully do not play a collapsing D like past seasons or the Flames will get lit up all year.
No Kipper they will have to defend the blue line.

Dear god help us if you are correct. that in no way helps the flames future. lets find out what we have going forward. this would be what i hope for.
Ramo-40 games
Berra-22 games
Ortio- 20 games
Mcdonald-6 minutes and 17 seconds

As i said before, lets see what all 3 have, with both Berra and Ortio getting lots of starts in Abby.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

MacDonald
Ramo
Berra

In that order is how the goalies will go this year.
I think all 3 will get some games.
MacDonald with 50% of the starts Ramo with 30% and Berra with the other 20%
depending on injuries and how well or poorly Ramo plays.
The coaches hopefully do not play a collapsing D like past seasons or the Flames will get lit up all year.
No Kipper they will have to defend the blue line.

Disagree...after listening to Feaster and seeing the rotation this far, I have to believe that the order is

Ramo
Berra
MacDonald

At least to start the season.

[sureLoss]

This was Feaster before last night's game:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports-content/hoc...ames-camp.html

"It's still wide open. We played a split-squad game to open in Edmonton and we took both of the new goalies in Ramo and Berra with us. We started Rama and gave him the first 30 minutes and he was unspectacular. Then Berra came in was very, very good to give us a chance to rally to overcome a three-goal deficit and win in a shootout.


"We then went to Saskatoon to play Ottawa, and based on his performance in Edmonton, we gave the full performance to Berra and he was just okay. We felt we outplayed Ottawa, but that we were out-goaltended.


"The next night we played an Islanders split-squad team in Regina with quite a few of their NHLers. We gave that one to Ramo and Ramo was excellent. Joey MacDonald has been okay in his two games. So it's still a wide-open competition.


"We have two exhibition games left, tonight [Monday] against the Rangers at home and Wednesday against Phoenix at home. Tonight it will be Ramo and on Wednesday it will be Berra and then we have some decisions to make."