Building the Defense

[Cali Panthers Fan]

So we are in year 1 of a rebuild (or year 4-5 depending on how you look at it) and the forward pool has been stocked pretty well and we will likely continue to add to it for the next year or two. The goaltending situation is stocked pretty well between Gillies, Ortio, and Brossoit, not to mention the guys that will likely play pro this year. I feel like the next big step is getting our defense in order. Now I know there are pieces there right now, but I went back and looked at the group from 03-04 when the Flames were 3rd overall in goals against. Ok, so we know that Kipper was lights out that year, and it was the clutch and grab era, but the group of defenders was still very solid if unspectacular and all went on to have decent careers:

Jordan Leopold, Toni Lydman, Robyn Regehr, Rhett Warrener, Denis Gauthier, Andrew Ference, (Steve Montadore, Mike Commodore).

Now I know the game has changed, but look at the quality of defender in that top six (Gauthier haters please don't reply to that statement), as well as the physicality in that group. Only Leopold and Lydman were real puck movers (maybe Ference). The rest were stay at home defenders who were absolute warriors in their own zone.

For comparison, here's the group a season later that was #7 in goals against (with lots of help from Kipper), and for my money was the best group we had since the cup winning days:

Dion Phaneuf (in his best season), Roman Hamrlik, Robyn Regehr, Jordan Leopold, Rhett Warrener, Andrew Ference (Bryan Marchment, Richie Regehr, Cale Hulse, Mark Giordano, Steve Montador)

*I know team defense plays a big part of the numbers, but you still have to evaluate the talent in the position.*

Here's today's group:

Mark Giordano, T.J. Brodie, Dennis Wideman, Chris Butler, Kris Russell, Shane O'Brien (Derek Smith)

Here's my take; Brodie reminds me of a slightly better version of Leopold; Giordano reminds me of none of these guys, but has elements of Hamrlik and Ference; Wideman is a poor, poor man's Phaneuf; Butler is Richie Regehr or Cale Hulse; Kris Russell is ?; Shane O'Brien is Bryan Marchment;
Derek Smith reminds me of the undeveloped version of Giordano.

So in the end we have no Regehr or Warrener and a substandard Phaneuf. We don't have enough physicality or tenaciousness on defense in the current lineup.

Now let's look at the kids that are close:

Tyler Wotherspoon-very solid stay at home defender with some offensive ability that is undeveloped. Probably at least a 2nd pairing defenseman, but not sure who is comparable is yet.
Patrick Sieloff-very physical hard hitting stay at home defender with a decent point shot. A warrior who reminds me of Regehr.
John Ramage-another very solid stay at home defender with good character and leadership. Reminds me of a less physical Warrener.
Ryan Culkin-has some work to do to make the NHL. Could be a decent defender with good puck moving skills.
Keegan Kanzig-huge, physical, intelligent, and mean spirited. Has to work on his skating and positioning, but could be a bottom pairing defender. Has no comparable in Flames history.
Eric Roy-good size and offensive instincts, but poor in his own zone and needs to work on understanding the game. Not sure he'll make the NHL.
Brett Kulak-was tabbed as a solid defender and leader, but looked terrible at the recent development camps. He will probably not make the NHL.
Mark Cundari-reminds me of Steve Montador but more offensive.

So here's my question. We all keep talking about how we are lacking that top defender to pair with Brodie, and we clearly do not have that person in the organization right now, but do we have enough other prospects to fill out a quality defense group? Do we have a lot more work to do? What else, if anything, do you think we need to focus on in terms of a type of player?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

So we are in year 1 of a rebuild (or year 4-5 depending on how you look at it)

Year 2 at most, surely. Before 2012, we had three years of repainting the kitchen while letting the roof fall in. I’m not opposed to painting kitchens, but I don’t think that really counts as rebuilding.

As for your question, it’s a very interesting one. I think you’re pretty much on the money in your assessment of the Flames’ current defencemen. They definitely need that top offensive D-man, and unless Brodie matures into that player (which he still might), they’ll have to draft one or trade for one. I think the team has more than enough material to fill out the second and third pairings, just that some of it isn’t ready for the show yet.

By the way, when I think of Kanzig, he reminds me of a bigger Paul Baxter in some ways. Maybe I’m way off on that one, since it has been, oh, a year or two since I saw Baxter play. But he’s probably the best comparable I can think of offhand.

[Miniac]

Draft Ekblad! Big #1 dman.

Spoiler!

Love his playoff beard at the age of 17!

[Caged Great]

The Flames for the past couple seasons have been focusing on getting defenseman that are offensively oriented. Of their D last year, all of them except Sarich was an offensive minded d-man.

Usually offensive defensemen tend to be terrible, or merely adequate in their end, otherwise they make 6+ million.

In terms of a team set up, usually you need 2 guys that are good at both ends (See Keith/Seabrook/Chara/Doughty/Pieterangelo etc). The second guy doesn't need to be a star guy, but a player the level of Gio when he's good at the minimum. Secondly, you can have a player that's mostly offensive as long as they aren't completely terrible in their own zone. Brian Campbell back when he was on the Hawks, or Dennis Wideman if you shelter him a bit. The rest of the defense though should be of the shutdown variety. If they have any offensive skills, that's awesome, but it isn't necessary. Your team needs to be able to effectively shut down the opposition while being able to add some offense.

[PlayfulGenius]

I was wondering if the Flames would pick a D at #6 this year just because it could make sense to rebuild with D first as they take longer to develop. That way, the players can theoretically hit their prime together, like the Blackhawks did.

So, perhaps Nurse or Risto could have been taken over Monahan?? I know, you gotta go BPA though based on what the scouts say, so I'm not suggesting Monahan was a mistake by any means.

Hopefully it works out for CGY that the BPA with their upcoming 1st rounder is a stud D.

[Enoch Root]

You really can't project how the young guys will develop - all you can do is keep playing the numbers game and focus on development.

And until you have solid goaltending, you're never going to have a solid defense. It's pretty much that simple. However, there are some possibilities in net and we'll just have to let that play out as well.

At this point - year 1 in a rebuild - I am pretty happy with the prospect pool on defense. It is a long way from where it needs to be, but so is the rebuild.

For me the answer is pretty clear: keep acquiring assets - at every position - and keep developing them. When the core of a good team is starting to emerge - whether that's 3 years or 5 years from now - then you can look to free agency and/or trading some of your assets to get that key top-pairing Dman to round out the roster.

Until that point (when a solid core is emerging) I am not concerned. We're a rebuilding team.

To the people who suggest trading Giordano - I'm talking to you, Lambert - that would be the stupidest thing they could do. Offense is about creativity and talent. Defense is largely learned. You need intelligent vets to teach the kids how to play defense in the NHL, and to keep the team from completely sucking. When you throw a bunch of kids to the wolves you risk them completely losing their confidence.

It is going to take a while to build a solid D core again. I hope fans have the patience for it.

[GettinIggyWithIt]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

For me the answer is pretty clear: keep acquiring assets - at every position - and keep developing them. When the core of a good team is starting to emerge - whether that's 3 years or 5 years from now - then you can look to free agency and/or trading some of your assets to get that key top-pairing Dman to round out the roster.

.

Couldn't agree more with that statement. Acquire assets, build depth in as many positions and roles as you can, and trade from positions of strength to fill holes. Of course, signing free agents can complement that too.

Through one draft, the Flames drastically improved their prospect base up front and I think you'll see them do the same over the next 2-3 years on D. Right now this is a good start and we can see who pans out and who doesn't. If 3 of those guys mentioned in the initial post (ex. Ramage, Wotherspoon, Sieloff) pan out as NHL dmen to join Brodie, I'd be happy.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

I say build around Brodie and hope and pray that Wotherspoon and Sieloff becoming what we all hope they can be. If those three lead us into the future. I'm confident we'll be alright on D.

In the meantime. Let's hope we can get Ekblad next draft or maybe even Roland McKeown or Haydn Fleury if Feaster picks up another first rounder.

[Walter Reed]

I thought the Flames might have given Mark Fistric some consideration as a stop gap player until some of your younger guys on defense were ready ....

[Calgary4LIfe]

Kulak is FAR from being considered a bust. Yes, he didn't look tremendous in the mixed-squad games, but this kid could very well become a staple in the top 4 for the future. The kid is still in junior - let's not write him off just yet.

The defence will come just like the rest of the team - through smart drafting and supplemented through smart trading and smart UFA signings. Just takes a bit of time.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Walter Reed

I thought the Flames might have given Mark Fistric some consideration as a stop gap player until some of your younger guys on defense were ready ....

okay.....

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Kulak is FAR from being considered a bust. Yes, he didn't look tremendous in the mixed-squad games, but this kid could very well become a staple in the top 4 for the future. The kid is still in junior - let's not write him off just yet.

The defence will come just like the rest of the team - through smart drafting and supplemented through smart trading and smart UFA signings. Just takes a bit of time.

Didn't say he was a bust, I just think compared to almost every other d-man prospect we had in those 2 tournaments, he looked by far the worst, even worse than Kanzig and Roy who were just drafted. He has a long way to go to prove he belongs in the NHL.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Walter Reed

I thought the Flames might have given Mark Fistric some consideration as a stop gap player until some of your younger guys on defense were ready ....

I thought it would be a good idea too. I'm not sold on Russell, O'Brien, and Butler being everyday players.

But, on the other hand, it does leave opportunity for a Sieloff, Ramage, or Wotherspoon to steal a job from a veteran. Camp isn't over yet.

[kyuss275]

Better prospect pool of D than 2 years ago. That said Flames will be lucky to have 3 of the 8 D-men mentioned in the original post be full time NHL players. Just like any other organization we need more.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Walter Reed

I thought the Flames might have given Mark Fistric some consideration as a stop gap player until some of your younger guys on defense were ready ....

Fistric is no better than the marginal NHLers we already have (Russell, SOB, Butler, Wideman). I would rather see guys like Cundari, Smith and even Breen than another retread guy like Fistric.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by moon

Fistric is no better than the marginal NHLers we already have (Russell, SOB, Butler, Wideman). I would rather see guys like Cundari, Smith and even Breen than another retread guy like Fistric.

marginal NHLer? Really? He may not be your favourite player, but he's an established NHL defenseman. Just stop it.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

marginal NHLer? Really? He may not be your favourite player, but he's an established NHL defenseman. Just stop it.

Russel, Butler and SOB are also established NHL defensemen. Whats your point? I think moon was saying the flames don't need another 6/7 d-man, we already have 4 on one way contracts.

[Lanny_McDonald]

I think the Flames are in good shape on the blueline. I see guys like Wotherspoon and Sieloff as guys that won't miss. I think they fit somewhere in the 3-6 positions, so a good chance they find a position in the next two or three years as attrition happens. I see Ramage as one of those guys that plays on the bottom pair but is a penalty killing specialist or a guy that plays with the game on the line. He has the type of player that wears a letter. Those three are the guys I fully expect to be added to Giordano and Brodie in the next two years. I think the Flames will have opportunity to grab Ekblad in the next draft and fill that hole on the top pair next to Brodie. There will be some surprises alon g the way, I'm sure, but those will just add to the depth building on the blueline.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

marginal NHLer? Really? He may not be your favourite player, but he's an established NHL defenseman. Just stop it.

They are all bad NHL players, marginal in terms of ability at the NHL level.

Its great that he is established but if he has established that he sucks then it doesn't really matter much at all.

[EVERLAST]

like the write up however I strongly disagree with the comparison Butler and Richie Regher.

Richie had he not be concussed was the exact type of player that Gio is except for a little better shot and better wheels.

Butler is BUTTER SOFT and doesnt only not pick his spots will continue being the biggest sore spot on the back end.

Cundari would be far better suited back there with his physicality and occasional hiccup compared to Butter and his lack of coverage, physicality, pussiness, edge, presence etc etc ...youd think I hated the guy or something.

We need defense this year in front of our goalies and forwards willing to back check obviously and give our non Kipper goalies a chance.

A defence isnt scary at all and Butter brings it down further than that ...nuff said ....end my rant.