Kesler doesn't wanna hear that the Nucks are declining

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Where I see the similarities is the Flames and Nucks were both 2 seasons removed from SCF appearances and 2 first round exits. The Flames made the finals, finished 3rd lost in 7 games in round 1, finished 8th lost in 6 games round 1 hired Keenan. The Canucks made the finals, finished 1st lost in 5 games round 1, finished 3rd and lost in a sweep and bring in Torts.

Sure the Nucks were a better team when the move was made but the Flames window appeared to be open longer at the time Kennan came on

Age at the time Flames
Iggy - 30
Kipper - 31
Phaneuf - 22
Regehr - 28
Langkow - 31
Tanguay - 27

Age of Canucks
Sedins - 33
Luongo - 34
Edler - 27
Hamhuis - 30
Kesler - 29

I would argue Vancouver made the move later and have a smaller window for success even though their core was stronger than the flames. Sure the Nucks have Burrows, Kassian, Booth but the Flames had Husslieus, Nystrom, and Lombardi. Garrison, Tanev and Bieksa? The Flames had Sarich Giordano and Aucoin. I think the teams situations were VERY comparable and similar

Except the Flames were younger and more talented.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Two years ago they were an elite team, there is no way to argue that. I don't think that they are elite anymore, they are getting older, but to argue that the 2010-2012 Canucks were not an elite hockey team would just be incorrect. Winning two Presidents Trophies and a trip to the Stanley Cup Finals indicates that they were at one point in time an elite hockey club.

I disagree...making it the finals one year doesn't make you elite. They aren't and won't be with this lineup in the same category as the Chicagos, Bostons, Detriots, Pittsburghs and recently LA...those teams have had better success in the regular season and playoffs than Vancouver over a longer period - Vancouver is a level below. Sometimes great teams catch all the right breaks..but they haven't been able to sustain it - sustainability is what makes you elite.

[jayswin]

You forgot to pluralize 'LA'. This will upset the flameswin's and 4X4's of Calgarypuck.

[BigBird]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

I disagree...making it the finals one year doesn't make you elite. They aren't and won't be with this lineup in the same category as the Chicagos, Bostons, Detriots, Pittsburghs and recently LA...those teams have had better success in the regular season and playoffs than Vancouver over a longer period - Vancouver is a level below. Sometimes great teams catch all the right breaks..but they haven't been able to sustain it - sustainability is what makes you elite.

Lol not sure if serious or just hates canucks

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

I disagree...making it the finals one year doesn't make you elite. They aren't and won't be with this lineup in the same category as the Chicagos, Bostons, Detriots, Pittsburghs and recently LA...those teams have had better success in the regular season and playoffs than Vancouver over a longer period - Vancouver is a level below. Sometimes great teams catch all the right breaks..but they haven't been able to sustain it - sustainability is what makes you elite.

You forgot the back to back president's trophies.

1st President's trophy was 10 points ahead of anyone else...sorry but that is pretty remarkable.

In those 2 seasons, the Preds were the only WC team to make it to the second round both years, Red Wings were the only other WC team with 100+ points each season, and only had one series win to their credit.

Flyers and Penguins also had 100+ points both years, and Flyers made it to second round each year (but no further), as did the Caps.


I hate the nucks, but it's impossible to argue that they weren't elite (if not the best team) those two years. Division wins and 2nd round exits the prior two years mean they were still elite over a four year period...Pens, Caps, Flyers, Blackhawks & Red Wings are the only teams with comparable achievements...

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

You forgot the back to back president's trophies.

1st President's trophy was 10 points ahead of anyone else...sorry but that is pretty remarkable.

In those 2 seasons, the Preds were the only WC team to make it to the second round both years, Red Wings were the only other WC team with 100+ points each season, and only had one series win to their credit.

Flyers and Penguins also had 100+ points both years, and Flyers made it to second round each year (but no further), as did the Caps.


I hate the nucks, but it's impossible to argue that they weren't elite (if not the best team) those two years. Division wins and 2nd round exits the prior two years mean they were still elite over a four year period...Pens, Caps, Flyers, Blackhawks & Red Wings are the only teams with comparable achievements...

Will people stop saying silly things like "it's impossible to say they weren't elite". Yes it is, it's very possible, it all depends on what your definition of elite is. For example, you just cited the two presidents trophy's, all someone has to do to rebuttal is claim they don't care about regular season and explain a weak division. I'm not saying they'd be right, but its a reasonable argument.

I've already said in thin the Nucks were elite, but they certainly didn't sign seal and deliver that status, which means it debatable. In fact, this thread proves it debatable. But given we have recent examples where we can look at multiple teams since the 05 lock out that have made multiple cup appearances: Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburg and the Nucks aren't one of them, certainly means there status among the leagues elite has to at least be on the table for debate.

[Coach]

[Lanny'sDaMan]

Originally Posted by super nintendo chalmers

good luck with that. I started posting here when the canucks were 10th in the conference.

I have to say this, though. There are far less idiots here than on hf.

fyp.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

You forgot the back to back president's trophies.

1st President's trophy was 10 points ahead of anyone else...sorry but that is pretty remarkable.

In those 2 seasons, the Preds were the only WC team to make it to the second round both years, Red Wings were the only other WC team with 100+ points each season, and only had one series win to their credit.

Flyers and Penguins also had 100+ points both years, and Flyers made it to second round each year (but no further), as did the Caps.


I hate the nucks, but it's impossible to argue that they weren't elite (if not the best team) those two years. Division wins and 2nd round exits the prior two years mean they were still elite over a four year period...Pens, Caps, Flyers, Blackhawks & Red Wings are the only teams with comparable achievements...

The President Trophy mean's squat - Any good team can win it given the right circumstance. Since schedules can't be the same - these types of accomplishments require great teams and not elite ones- elite teams are defined IMO by what you do in the playoffs over several years - A team in a competitive division will have a hard time winning the presidents trophy.

It's not impossible, there are teams with better meaningful success and bunch of them - they don't belong in the same breath - they were close but their lack of playoff success outside 2011 keeps them a notch down

[blankall]

Arguing about an "elite" team in the NHL is ridiculous. The difference between a #8 and #1 team in the conference is slim, and any given team can win on any night. The application of the term "elite" is ridiculous, as it implies that certain teams are in a different class than other teams.

And yes, the Canucks were undeniably a top team in the NHL in the 2010/2011 season. They won the president's trophy and got to the Stanley Cup finals. In 2011/12, they were a top team through the regular season. They were easily bumped in the first round of the playoffs.

Last year, they made the playoffs by 4 points, despite playing in an awful division. They were then swept in the first round of the playoffs. Not "elite".

[DuffMan]

I don't care what Kesler says, actions speak louder than words, and I hope to see him crying a lot this year.

[Flash Walken]

What is this, CalgaryFlames.com?

A team that finishes as the best in the league twice in a row through 82 games is not Elite?

What the hell is going on in this thread?

[zamler]

I think everyone acknowledges that the Canucks have several pre-season championships, and were an elite regular season team.

[cowtown75]

Originally Posted by zamler

I think everyone acknowledges that the Canucks have several pre-season championships, and were an elite regular season team.

I think it's aknowledged, but no one cares (Regular season stats) And what the heck is a pre-season championship ? And if the organization thought that being just a regular season "elite" team was good enough, they wouldn't of fired their coach and made some silly trades. Being a good team during regular season in a weak division means squat. Two first round exits in a row tells the storey- their window is gone. The sister's are older, and the team is on the decline. Book it.

[Murph]

I believe Ryan is somewhere between denial and anger...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kübler-Ross_model

[zamler]

Originally Posted by cowtown75

And what the heck is a pre-season championship ?

The only championship the Canucks will ever win.

[stemit14]

After what luongo did in his first game this year... Kesler might have to get used to hearing about the decline of the Canucks.

[shogged]

Originally Posted by stemit14

After what luongo did in his first game this year... Kesler might have to get used to hearing about the decline of the Canucks.

torts and the 25% rule haha

We need a damn occasional save!

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

The President Trophy mean's squat - Any good team can win it given the right circumstance. Since schedules can't be the same - these types of accomplishments require great teams and not elite ones- elite teams are defined IMO by what you do in the playoffs over several years - A team in a competitive division will have a hard time winning the presidents trophy.

It's not impossible, there are teams with better meaningful success and bunch of them - they don't belong in the same breath - they were close but their lack of playoff success outside 2011 keeps them a notch down

I don't know what team you were watching, but they were an elite team. That 2011 team had an Art Ross winning 100 point player, a 94 point player who had won the Hart/Art Ross the year before, a second line centre who won the Selke while scoring 40 goals, one of the best third line centres in the league in Maholtra, arguably two number one defenders and Vezina nominated goalie. They had ten more points than any other team in the entire league, scored the most goals in the league and let in the least amount of goals in the league. They were without a doubt an elite team in the league at that time.

Now excuse while I throw up for writing that.

[stemit14]

Originally Posted by Cole436

I don't know what team you were watching, but they were an elite team. That 2011 team had an Art Ross winning 100 point player, a 94 point player who had won the Hart/Art Ross the year before, a second line centre who won the Selke while scoring 40 goals, one of the best third line centres in the league in Maholtra, arguably two number one defenders and Vezina nominated goalie. They had ten more points than any other team in the entire league, scored the most goals in the league and let in the least amount of goals in the league. They were without a doubt an elite team in the league at that time.

Now excuse while I throw up for writing that.

They also did all of that and made it through the playoffs by becoming the biggest divers in NHL history. I don't think there has ever been a team with such a reputation for whining and diving as that team. It got so bad in 2011 that it became the story of their cup run... Analysts, sports writers, and sports radio talk shows weren't talking about gritty plays or amazing goals like they do in every other teams playoff run... Instead, they were talking about the sedins taking punches to the face and whining to the refs, Kesler chicken-winging Shea Weber's stick to draw the power play that won them that series, burrows biting people, and luongo flopping around to draw penalties. Do u guys remember the montages of the Canucks diving displays from that season that were showing up on sportscentre? They're on YouTube still if u want to see them again.

That is why they don't deserve to be called elite... Because they disgraced the game in a way that is still being felt 3 years later. I know some of you will say that "every team dives" but nobody ever did it so much as the Canucks did. Because of that success in 2011, diving gets worse every year around the league and nothing has been done about it.

They never were elite and I'm going to enjoy watching their fall from grace.