Sept 10 Apple Event Thread - iPhone 5S, iPhone 5C, iOS7

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

The basic argument against apple seems to be:

Don't buy an iPhone because it has a "2010 sized screen" with a boring OS and you should only pay 400 for it cause that's what a smartphone is worth now, and don't sign a contract because screw the cell phone companies and we promise everyone will love any other brand of phone because apple just copies them anyways and spends all their money on suing people and the CEO has ruined the company.

How did I do?

Yes on the bolded part. Why are you saying this part so sarcastically? This is a rather important point. For the most part, people in this thread don't hate the iPhone as phone. Even MMF said that, despite some of his vitriol.

Many of us have a budget that we need to manage (despite what the CP income survey tells you! lol), and simply don't want to pay that much for a smartphone, when there are cheaper comparables. It's not always about Apple/Google fanboyism. Some of us just need to get good bang for our buck.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Rathji

My 37" 720p TV I bought 5 years ago was $800.

You do the math.

Honestly not sure what you mean. TV's being cheap you mean? I haven't kept a pulse on market trends on anything less than 50" or 1080 for the last decade.

Certainly TV's have gone cheap over the years. TV manufacturers priced themselves into oblivion over the years racking up billions on losses with so many of them closing shop or resigned to taking a loss on every TV sold.

Hell, people still reference the "KURO" standard today - arguably still unbeaten. So damn sad that current sets apparently cannot consistently compare even after so many years.

Is the expectation for an industry leader to price their market into oblivion? Like I said, it certainly hasn't happened for electronics markets and items - cars, processors, consoles, video cards, and so forth.

[ken0042]

Why do you lump cars in with electronics?

As for consoles, the Xbox 360 was $500 at launch. Now it's $200-300. (and was last year long before the Xbone launch.) I've also seen video cards come down in price; I can buy a 4 GB card today for less than what a similar 1 GB card cost in 2008.

[chemgear]

Ahhh, so the comment/comparison is about prior generations of products. That is where I wasn't sure and thus asking the honest question.

Of course, I'm sure a 200 or 300 series GTX is in the bargain bin. Same with used/older generation cars, TV's, consoles.

I was looking at prices of the latest iteration of products. They certainly are fairly stable. Like you say, the 360 was $500 - the Xbone will be $499. I'm sure you can find older iPhone 2 & 3's for cheap.

EDIT:

Perhaps I am incorrect - you are complaining that decreasing pricing model of the iPhone 2/3/4 is out of date? Or the latest iteration, newly shown iPhone 5S?

Originally Posted by ken0042

The pricing is outdated. Would you spend the same on an LCD TV today as 5 years ago? What about a laptop? Sure, the new version would be ahead of the old one in many different resects. But generally the price for electronics comes down over time. So rather than staying ahead of things, they are looking like they will wait to see if the market will flop on them.

[ken0042]

What I am saying is that 5 years ago a 1 GB video card would have cost around $300. Today I can buy a 4 GB video card for under $200. That 1 GB card would have been just as "state of the art" in 2008 as a 4 GB card would be today.

Or a Sony DVD player would have cost $200 in 2008. Today a Sony BD player is about $80. Once again with a TV; I paid $400 for a 32" 3 years ago, today the same TV would be $250. The TV would also be 1080p today as opposed to the 720p model I bought back then. (comparing similar levels of "state of the art.")

So in a similar fashon, the iPhone 5s costs $700, and 4 years ago an iPhone 3GS would have also cost $700. So even though in each of my examples the current device is technically better than the older version, the dollar for dollar cost is lower. (Leaving inflation out of the picture.) $700 was the going rate for a good smartphone 4 years ago; whereas today I have seen plently of options in the $400 range.

I actually don't have nearly as much of an issue with the 5s being $700. My issue is that Apple had a chance to offer us lower priced phones, and I think they dropped the ball. Now people looking at phones might consider other options. Even the people who don't care about unlocked might see a Nexus 5 for $0 on a $60 plan, and compare it with a 5c for $99 on a $70 plan. Now that Nexus is $300 cheaper over 2 years. Maybe that isn't worth some of the nice things that come with iPhone.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by ken0042

What I am saying is that 5 years ago a 1 GB video card would have cost around $300. Today I can buy a 4 GB video card for under $200. That 1 GB card would have been just as "state of the art" in 2008 as a 4 GB card would be today.

Or a Sony DVD player would have cost $200 in 2008. Today a Sony BD player is about $80. Once again with a TV; I paid $400 for a 32" 3 years ago, today the same TV would be $250. The TV would also be 1080p today as opposed to the 720p model I bought back then. (comparing similar levels of "state of the art.")

So in a similar fashon, the iPhone 5s costs $700, and 4 years ago an iPhone 3GS would have also cost $700. So even though in each of my examples the current device is technically better than the older version, the dollar for dollar cost is lower. (Leaving inflation out of the picture.) $700 was the going rate for a good smartphone 4 years ago; whereas today I have seen plently of options in the $400 range.

I actually don't have nearly as much of an issue with the 5s being $700. My issue is that Apple had a chance to offer us lower priced phones, and I think they dropped the ball. Now people looking at phones might consider other options. Even the people who don't care about unlocked might see a Nexus 5 for $0 on a $60 plan, and compare it with a 5c for $99 on a $70 plan. Now that Nexus is $300 cheaper over 2 years. Maybe that isn't worth some of the nice things that come with iPhone.

Yup, I see what you are kinda saying (and agree that we probably don't want to mess with inflation here.)

For the timing and models of the video cards, TV's and DVD players - I'm not sure they line up as well. What is equivalent "state of the art" at the time, 720 being equivalent as 1080 with the advent of 4K now and Blu-ray being pretty darn old too. Don't get me wrong, I see what you are saying but I liken it to the clean comparison with the latest iterations of video card/processor releases. They often have the same prices as the previous generation when first released and the older gen gets priced down generationally.

Basically, I think the pricing for the 5S seems pretty consistent with a lot of electronic release schemes and Apple policies in the past. Complaints there seem a little silly (not saying you but rather in general).

That said I certainly I don't disagree that Apple could have low balled the price more on the 5C. But the argument could be made that the 5C still has a lot of the new 5 features/components and the lower price phone will be found in the 4/4S. A discussion for another thread perhaps.

[FanIn80]

All the years of arguing about Apple products, and people still haven't figured out that the people who buy the damn things just don't give a sh*t about what people think about the price. We see value in what we're getting, and that's the only thing that matters. Maybe you don't put as much stock into some of the intangibles that are part of the deal. Who knows? More importantly, who cares? If you want it, buy it. If you don't want it, don't buy it.

If I can afford a Ferrari, I'll go buy a Ferrari. If I can't afford a Ferrari, then I won't buy a Ferrari. Either way, I'm not going to sit here and bitch about how expensive Ferraris are.

(Yes, I know. Lots of people would rather just buy a Honda for 10% of the cost of a Ferrari and then spend three years adding crap to it to make it go almost as fast. I'm not one of those people. I'd rather just go to the lot, buy the damn Ferrari and then spend the next three years doing something else with my time. I have absolutely zero interest in whether or not people think I'm wasting my money.)

[MrMastodonFarm]

The best thing about Apple is they've managed to convince people they're the Ferrari company. A seriously brilliant marketing company above all. Even I kind of get goose-chills hearing Jonathan Ivy say "...unapologetically plastic".

Sorry FanIn80, but a lot of people just don't buy it, and the fatal flaw in saying that Apple (and the iPhone) are definitely not Ferrari. The iPhone is a fantastic phone and if it works for you more power to you but at this point its much more then a debate about which phone is the best phone on the market. The iPhone held that title for a year or two but a plethora of other phones are now looking at it in its rear view mirror.

I hate the fact I have to qualify this, but given my Android love I will, the iPhone is an excellent phone and if you buy one I am sure you will love it but it's no longer the cream of the crop. (my opinion of course). The guys working on the iPhone have rested on their laurels and let other guys not only catch up and pass them on operating system but on design as well. HTC killed it with the HTC One, a beautifully designed phone. Google killed it with Android, which was a slow burn but finally felt complete at around 4.0 (though I think it was 4.1).

If someone like sun or Estrada says in this thread they've loved their iPhones in the past and will get the new one, that's awesome, no one has a problem with that but I, and others will enjoy a good debate and really finding out what the best phone and operating system on the market is. I don't think either is Apple, I don't think either has been for a while, which is a pain because at this point they're falling out of the discussion, a discussion which they used to dominate.

Apple is not the Ferrari, saying that is just a device used to dismiss anyone who talks about price but I'm sorry it's not going to work.

[chemgear]

Total aside, but it is something that I've noticed with social media in general (not this thread).

Companies/artists release something or make a post about product. Random shatheads say "Too damn expensive", "Make it $10 and I'll buy it", "Only fanboys would spend more than 2 cents on that".

If you can't afford something, that's cool. For better or for worse, the product is probably isn't for or targeted to you. Which is fine either way, the market will figure things out.

The entitlement attitudes these days. So sad.

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Lots of people would rather just buy a Honda for 10% of the cost of a Ferrari and then spend three years adding crap to it to make it go almost as fast.

Odd analogy. Nothing needs to be done to the "Honda" in this case.

[DownInFlames]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

The best thing about Apple is they've managed to convince people they're the Ferrari company. A seriously brilliant marketing company above all. Even I kind of get goose-chills hearing Phil Ivey say "...unapologetically plastic".

Sorry FanIn80, but a lot of people just don't buy it, and the fatal flaw in saying that Apple (and the iPhone) are definitely not Ferrari. The iPhone is a fantastic phone and if it works for you more power to you but at this point its much more then a debate about which phone is the best phone on the market. The iPhone held that title for a year or two but a plethora of other phones are now looking at it in its rear view mirror.

I hate the fact I have to qualify this, but given my Android love I will, the iPhone is an excellent phone and if you buy one I am sure you will love it but it's no longer the cream of the crop. (my opinion of course). The guys working on the iPhone have rested on their laurels and let other guys not only catch up and pass them on operating system but on design as well. HTC killed it with the HTC One, a beautifully designed phone. Google killed it with Android, which was a slow burn but finally felt complete at around 4.0 (though I think it was 4.1).

If someone like sun or Estrada says in this thread they've loved their iPhones in the past and will get the new one, that's awesome, no one has a problem with that but I, and others will enjoy a good debate and really finding out what the best phone and operating system on the market is. I don't think either is Apple, I don't think either has been for a while, which is a pain because at this point they're falling out of the discussion, a discussion which they used to dominate.

Apple is not the Ferrari, saying that is just a device used to dismiss anyone who talks about price but I'm sorry it's not going to work.

The Apple is Ferrari analogy is valid, but maybe not for the reasons mentioned. It's all about public perception. Ferrari has made some clunkers in the past but they still sold based on their provenance. Even a great Ferrari like the 458 can be beaten by a cheaper GT-R, but guess which one is more likely to get you laid. To the average person the iPhone is THE phone to buy and to show off. That's enough to earn Apple long lines whenever a phone goes on sale, and it won't be any different on the 20th.

You mention the HTC One, and while it is a great phone for the most part, there are some issues with the design that are lacking the fit and finish that Apple puts into their phones. For example, The power button is fiddly to press. The plastic by mine is cracked because of the extra force required to turn on the phone. The silver bits on the top and bottom are known to pop off easily with even a tiny drop.

And the microusb port is backwards compared to most phones. It's always a pain to plug it in, which I do often because the battery life is quite poor. The lightning cable is awesome on the other hand. Here's what Android users will have to deal with when USB 3.0 starts showing up, like it will in the Note 3.

http://www.androidbeat.com/2013/09/s...let-will-come/

HTC announced yesterday that some phones have a defective camera sensor that causes distortion in low light. My phone is affected and I sent it back today to get that fixed, along with the broken headphone jack (I had used it maybe 3 or 4 times.)I'll be without it for 2 to 3 weeks and I wasn't even offered a loaner. Now I have to hope that HTC's notoriously awful service will fix it properly. As I've said, I don't have this concern when my iPhone needs repair. It's in and out of the Apple Store in minutes with a brand new phone.

I don't take issue with anything else you've said. Google has done wonders with Android. If I could get a 4.7" screen, on a device made by Apple, running Jelly Bean I'd be in heaven.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Nice device don't get me wrong but to call that "truly innovative" is a stretch.

Fingerprint Scanner: meh IMO- same thing was innovative on laptops 4 years ago and that died pretty quickly.

64 bit hardware: Sounds great but questionable how much of an impact it actually has due to it really only being neccessary with >4MB of RAM. http://www.itproportal.com/2013/09/1...ormance-boost/

720p 120 FPS Camera: Note 3 and S4 also have this capability, don't think it is huge innovation.

Burst Mode: Not innovative at all, Blackberry already has this feature.

Of that list the only really innovative thing is the 64 bit hardware, and TBH I am not sure the phone has enough RAM for that to really matter.

Edit: Actually how they implemented the fingerprint scanner was pretty slick so I will give them that too. Still more incremental then innovative overall though.

Honestly how much time did you spend learning about the camera before you posted this?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

Honestly how much time did you spend learning about the camera before you posted this?

The camera has other benefits but what you stated as innovative 720p with 120FPS slow motion has already been done.

Still not innovative no matter how you slice it.

Sony makeing different lenses and zooms that can be easily attached and changed is innovative and different. Might not be successful but it is innovative.

Putting on a better Camera is expected not innovative. Apple does have a great camera, better then the S4, but its nothing groundbreaking. Id actually say say the most innovative feature is the true tone Dual LEd flash.

[SuperMatt18]

And the bashing of Apple in this thread isn't different from what many of the same posters said of Samsung in the S4 launch thread.

We bashed them for not being innovative, and only making slight changes. IIRC the majority in that threadsaid they would stick with the S3 or get an HTC One.

[Burninator]

Lol come on you can't seriously be using Apple (Ferrari) to Android/BB/WP (Honda) as a comparison. Either you are a bigger fan boy than everyone claims or know little about cars.

If you want to use a car analogy I would put Apple as VW. Good looking (not the prettiest), always a bit different (in a good way), certainly has a cult following and has a price premium.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Apple places a premium on its products that it really should not longer be placing. At one point in time the iPhone was definitively the best phone out there and had enough differentiating feautures to warrant placing the premium. But now you can get 95% similarity of an iPhone for 75% of the cost of an iPhone, so why wouldn't you? Because its not Apple? People want good value for their money, not a logo.

Apple's problem is they are targeting a market that isn't growing. They essentially have to achieve better profit margins on their phones because they aren't going to be seeing the growth they need. The high price "Ferrari" market isn't growing at all, its the midlevel market that is seeing the growth. As I said before its an interesting gamble going for margins over growth.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Lol come on you can't seriously be using Apple (Ferrari) to Android/BB/WP (Honda) as a comparison. Either you are a bigger fan boy than everyone claims or know little about cars.

If you want to use a car analogy I would put Apple as VW. Good looking (not the prettiest), always a bit different (in a good way), certainly has a cult following and has a price premium.

I guess I know nothing about cars when VW has a cult following....maybe they love driving with one headlight burnt out all the time.

If I were to use a car analogy I would put Apple as Honda and Samsung as Toyota.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

I guess I know nothing about cars when VW has a cult following....maybe they love driving with one headlight burnt out all the time.

If I were to use a car analogy I would put Apple as Honda and Samsung as Toyota.

??? that analogy doesn't work. Apple doesn't carry a lower end model.

Maybe Apple as Acura/Lexus and Samsung as Toyota/Honda

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Lol come on you can't seriously be using Apple (Ferrari) to Android/BB/WP (Honda) as a comparison. Either you are a bigger fan boy than everyone claims or know little about cars.

If you want to use a car analogy I would put Apple as VW. Good looking (not the prettiest), always a bit different (in a good way), certainly has a cult following and has a price premium.

That's funny. Sorta OT, but my friend has a VW, and I have a Honda. We're both Asian, so me having a Honda is pretty stereotypical, but I bought it because it's reliable and what I perceived as good value. My friend bought a VW because he didn't like the idea of being the stereotypical Asian, and wanted instead something more quirky and a bit different, even though maintenance has been more of a challenge for him than me.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

All the years of arguing about Apple products, and people still haven't figured out that the people who buy the damn things just don't give a sh*t about what people think about the price. We see value in what we're getting, and that's the only thing that matters. Maybe you don't put as much stock into some of the intangibles that are part of the deal. Who knows? More importantly, who cares? If you want it, buy it. If you don't want it, don't buy it.

This is so inaccurate. I owned nothing made by Apple for the first 30 years of my life (except for a hand-me-down Mac for a year or so in the mid-90s, but I didn't use it much). Then the iPhone came out. My wife and I have each owned three (we still have a 4 we use as an iPod in a Bose music player in our kitchen). We also have a classic iPod, a nano, a shuffle, two iPads, two Apple TVs and a MacBook Pro. The iPhone was our gateway drug into the ecosystem.

Everything we bought during our time with Apple was cutting edge and, IMO, offered great value because the competitors were so far behind, it's not even fair to Apple to call them competitors. Apple was on its own island of awesomeness.

After an unfortunate accident that killed one of our two iPads last year, I set off to the Apple store to replace it. This was right when the Nexus 7 came out. From what I could tell it was better than the iPad in every way and for less than half the price. It was a no brainer (for an unbiased person) to go with the Nexus 7 and I've been happy with it ever since.

Same with the Galaxy S3 - it was way better in every single way, shape, and form from hardware to software to price than the 4s, which was available at the time. For an unbiased person, the Apple was not compelling compared to the Samsung.

Now, if I were to buy a TV interface, the Chromcast at $35 would be much more compelling than the Apple TV, which costs three times more and is more restrictive.

So you say people that buy Apple products don't give a crap about price and you need to know you're wrong. Maybe you don't and that's what makes you a fanboi and pointless to engage in these discussions. I care a lot about price because I want the best value for my dollar with everything I buy (have you seen my rant about buying used cars versus new?).

When Apple was on top of its game a few years ago the stuff was still expensive, but the value was high because nothing out there matched it. Now, stuff is better and less expensive. Apple products right now offer a very poor value for buyers. This week's announcement reinforces that. Same outdated OS, same outdated pricing. The fingerprint thing is really cool (I don't care that it has been done poorly before) and I trust Apple has it working basically perfect or they wouldn't have released it. But I doubt that'll be enough to make many people want the phone.

The really annoying part is that Apple has so many fanbois that will defend every decision Apple makes. If these loyalists would be more critical of Apple to the point of taking their business elsewhere like I and many other people have, it would be the push Apple needs to step up their game instead of playing it safe and we'd all benefit from the better innovation and cooler devices.