[GDT] Flames Rookies vs Canucks Rookies, 8:30 MST

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

I still think you're putting too much effort into this. People saying that "if a player plays like this, then he's not going to have success..." are not really being unreasonably absolute or making long term predictions based on a couple of low level games, they're just criticising their perfomance right now using that kind of rhetoric.

Anyway, I don't like gossip about players' attititudes either, but at the same time if a player doesn't play with full effort, it's noteworthy and can be discussed. For me, positive performances in a tournament like this are nice but not something you can draw many conclusions from. Still worth discussing of course. I think disappointing performances are maybe a bit more worthy of discussion because this is our first opportunity to try and judge the progress the players have made and we have certain expectations for the more highly rated prospects. These views will be constantly revised as the preseason goes on - even the people who you feel are expressing themselves too strongly right now will change their opinions if the prospects start looking better.

I do agree with Textcritic's points about stating things in absolutes, but agree with you also that for some we are just happy about being able to present our own ideas and views about things. I studied behaviors in college so this just happens to be an area I enjoy talking about but definitely don't want to assume or gossip about the player. Don't know if it was missed but Cleveland Steam Whistle mentioned he had a farely reliable source concerning Baertschi's attitude and that is what prompted the initial conversation, plus we shared some references to Baertschi being upset last season about being sent down and how he dealt with those issues "these are not some guess's as speculated in Textcritics post; Just some assessments from what took place previously". Cleveland also stated that he would pm a mod if it was an issue so I was personally confident in saying there "may" be something to Baertschi's attitude. Absolutely he is a kid and he is still learning, that pretty much sums it up for me.

[Sylvanfan]

Scott Niedermeyer used to have poor practice habits as a junior player at times. When him and Rob would go to the Kamloops Blazers development camp, Rob would be the best player all week. When they held the game Scott who was hardly noticeable in practice stood out as being miles ahead of other players.

Point is try as we may to convince players that all situations are important, it doesn't always work that way. Baertschi is still only 20 years old and likely may need some work on his mental game. But at this point I will wait till the main camp and see how he does there. As I said earlier, he has nothing to gain in this tourney and thats probably why he's not competing as hard. So long as he can turn it on when it counts I can live with that. If he's bad in the main camp, than it's a bit of a red flag.

[Galakanokis]

I just think the Heat team is going to be pretty fun this next season. I really see a lot of guys on the Heat that will be pushing for NHL time and the end of the season should be very interesting.

Grandlund, Knight, Ferland, Hanowski, Reinhart, Ramage, Sieloff. Even Agostino after the college league is done. Still a number of guys with junior eligability to factor in. Nice problem to have.

For some reason I am really pulling for Hanowski, want him to do well and succeed. Maybe it is the trade, I don't know but I like him. Always seems to be in the right place at the right time and makes smart plays. He hustles and works hard and seems to understand the type of player he is. He's a third line guy but I think he can be a pretty good third line guy.

[Igster]

Oh man...Just reading through the last few pages of this thread...the freakin' season can't start soon enough.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by New Era

You do know that these kids train and work to develop a certain ethic, and that this work ethic is largely what separates the wheat from the chaff? A player can have all the talent in the world, but a poor attitude or a poor skating stride can prevent that kid from making it to, and sticking in, the NHL. See Robbie Schremp for examples of both. Also, most of these "kids" have been competing against each other since they were six or seven. They know these camps and tournaments are opportunities to show what they can do and potentially earn millions of dollars for their efforts. You may think that one player dogging it is just fine, but how do you think that works for the kid that is playing for his professional life out there, trying to earn a contract? Or should there not be equity in the system?

I respect your argument until you make this comment. What exactly has Baertschi proved to this point? Anything? He's played 25 NHL games and has 13 points to show for it. Does 25 games establish a player? I don't believe so. I do believe the league still considers him a rookie and he is still eligible for the Calder. So I don't see much of a track record that should allow for a player to take this self-entitled path to training camp. The Flames certainly let Mr. Howse know how they felt about guys with entitlement issues.

I think there is reason for concern here and there should be some interest in how the coaches and management handle their young players. Need you be reminded of Baertschi's reaction to his demotion last season and how his pouting affected not only his performance but that of the Abbottsford team? As a player he has a long way to go before he can claim he has proven anything. Once you take a look at this player's performance from that perspective would you not agree he has a long way to go and a lot more to prove?

The problem here is that it isn't just a bad game. It's two bad games. It's a less than spectacular performance at development camp where he was over-shadowed at a moment where he should have stood out. It's the memory of his demotion and the poor performance in the AHL. They all add up and should give you pause to consider, using a comparison from one of our rivals, if he is more Schremp than Eberle.


I agree with what you're saying, but at the same time I have to ask, is it really too early to ponder what this means? There are outcomes from every action, positive and negative. Using the Ferland example, he has stepped up and his play has vastly improved. He has made a huge impression and has moved back into the spotlight and will garner further attention. The potential of him achieving his NHL dream has greatly improved in a very short period of time. Using the Howse example, he has not met team expectations and that has resulted in his suspension and likely departure from the Flames organization. His dream has died, also in a very short period of time.

I'm just going to address a few of the glaring inaccuracies that makes up the reason people like Textcritic and myself have a problem with your posts on the subject. Since you used Baertschi for more of your examples, I'll do the same.

Firstly, this notion of work ethic that these players should or should not have is borderline ridiculous. I only say that because you're judging them by two meaningless games. Heaven forbid you might judge Baertschi on his time in the AHL or the NHL, rather than fourth line minutes at a prospects tournament which he has nothing to gain from. Your point about work ethic is completely negated the SECOND you factor in any professional hockey experience.

2. Comparisons to Schremp and Howse. Just stop. I get what you're trying to say, but are you aware that Baertschi has already accomplished more in the NHL than either of those two men had by the time they were 23? He's only 20, need I remind you. He's even accomplished more in the AHL than Howse did, so mentioning Howse at any point is completely irrelevant. As far as the entitlement issues, Howse doesn't play for he Flames because he didnt develop at all, he was awful. The Flames didnt make some grand gesture regarding his "entitlement issues", he simply turned out to be a lemon.
If you pro-rate his point production, Baertschi is already producing at the same offensive level as Schremp, so again, the comparison is null and void.

3. I find it brilliantly hypocritical that you're looking at 13 points in 25 NHL games and 26 points in 32 AHL games and saying "you can't judge him on that" but you're MORE than willing to judge him on 2 games of a semi-professional tournament. How do you justify looking at these 2 games while ignore the other 57 that he has played of actual professional hockey? Sorry, it's laughably contradictory to any point you're trying to make. You even said "it's not just one bad game, it's two bad games!".... so what about the 50+ good games of hockey that actually matters? No? Not factoring that in to your assessment? Ok...

4. Your analysis of Ferland kind of spells out the problem with your general analysis of players in this tournament. He has not "greatly" improved his chances of being an NHL player, he has simply shown he deserves to be where he is: an NHL prospect. This tournament isn't going to put anyone on a roster. 4 exhibition games mean about 1000% more to the big clubs than 3 prospect games. Sorry, but the guy isn't any closer to being in the NHL, he's simply showed them he should be considered for a training camp spot, which he likely already was anyway. That's it. It's still more likely that he never laces up for more than a cup of coffee in the NHL, but do I hope he becomes the next Lucic like some people here? You bet I do!

5. Lastly, this Baertschi attitude thing you're harping about, I'm not sure I know if you've followed the guy at all or what, but you're pretty clearly making a few things up and playing the guessing game. You don't know his attitude now, you don't know what his thought process is, so why are you guessing?
You also mention his attitude when he was sent down to the A. You clearly don't remember this at all. He was DISTRAUGHT. The kid looked so disappointed and confused. He worked so hard and it wasnt working for him, wouldnt that be hard on you? Afterwards he went on to pot 26 points in 32 games, so I'm not sure what you mean when you use it as an example, but the kid overcame the crushing disappointment of being sent down and earned himself a spot back on the NHL roster. Not sure where you gather a negative comment from that, but you somehow managed to, so good for you.

Like you said, sorry for the wall of text, but it was important to show you why people take issue with what you're saying. Being hypocritical when analysing talent is a brutal way to go about it.

[MrMastodonFarm]

I am beyond baffled in regards to the questions about Monahan's skating.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

This!

Just about once every 1-2 seasons this happens to a team. Most recently with Bobrovsky and the Jackets. Prior to Gaborik they were playing with ZERO proven 1st line forwards, yet they were tenacious as a team and supported each other well. And then Bob did the rest. You don't always need star power to come out and have a meaningful season. Sometimes a strong goaltender who can keep you in most games and a committed team in sync with eachother, playing a solid team style can bring a team more Ws than expected.

I just hope we have that goaltender in our ranks. Whether it be Ramo, Berra or Ortio, I hope one of them can rise up and be that guy for us. Would be amazing to see us actually do some damage when everyone is least expecting it. Am I expecting this? No, of course not. But as a fan, one can always hope.

I highly doubt that Burke and Feaster want this to happen. If you don't think we'll be seeing a tank job then you are in for a rude awakening.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

I am beyond baffled in regards to the questions about Monahan's skating.

You and me both.

Maybe some people have MacKinnon-esque expectations

[TurnedTheCorner]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

I am beyond baffled in regards to the questions about Monahan's skating.

Really? It's been two pre-pre-season games and he doesn't have 77 goals yet. Clearly it's time to write him off and focus on the upcoming entry draft. Hope we get that one right for a change.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

I highly doubt that Burke and Feaster want this to happen. If you don't think we'll be seeing a tank job then you are in for a rude awakening.

Do you have some points to back this up, I know Feaster has been on record for saying he is against losing games and I don't recall Burke supporting tanking. Here is a quote from TheStar "Maple Leafs general manager Brian Burke says losing games to get a higher draft pick is "not fair to our fans or our customers or our sponsors." .

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by strombad

Firstly, this notion of work ethic that these players should or should not have is borderline ridiculous. I only say that because you're judging them by two meaningless games. Heaven forbid you might judge Baertschi on his time in the AHL or the NHL, rather than fourth line minutes at a prospects tournament which he has nothing to gain from. Your point about work ethic is completely negated the SECOND you factor in any professional hockey experience.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I'm discussing the concern about Baertschi based on his reaction to the demotion to the AHL, his non-performance in development camp and his lack of engagement in either game at the young stars tournament. This isn't a two game sample, no matter how much you attempt to frame it as such. This is a kid who said he wanted to take up the mantle of being "the" player for the Flames when Iginla left and mentioned he wanted to be a positive role model for the future Flames.

And no, work ethic is not negated by professional experience. Players like Sakic, Yzerman and Iginla displayed a positive work ethic their whole careers. Former players like Gary Roberts make a killing working with young players attempting to instill that work ethic in them so they will be successful as a professional. Experience has little to do with work ethic except that exposure allows you to understand just how important work ethic is to success.

2. Comparisons to Schremp and Howse. Just stop. I get what you're trying to say, but are you aware that Baertschi has already accomplished more in the NHL than either of those two men had by the time they were 23? He's only 20, need I remind you. He's even accomplished more in the AHL than Howse did, so mentioning Howse at any point is completely irrelevant. As far as the entitlement issues, Howse doesn't play for he Flames because he didnt develop at all, he was awful. The Flames didnt make some grand gesture regarding his "entitlement issues", he simply turned out to be a lemon.
If you pro-rate his point production, Baertschi is already producing at the same offensive level as Schremp, so again, the comparison is null and void.

Your point on age is acknowledged. Your point about being established is not. Baertschi has a shortened professional season under his belt. He was less than impressive at either level. That is not established. He's still getting his feet wet. He still has a lot to prove, like that he deserves to be in the NHL.

3. I find it brilliantly hypocritical that you're looking at 13 points in 25 NHL games and 26 points in 32 AHL games and saying "you can't judge him on that" but you're MORE than willing to judge him on 2 games of a semi-professional tournament. How do you justify looking at these 2 games while ignore the other 57 that he has played of actual professional hockey? Sorry, it's laughably contradictory to any point you're trying to make. You even said "it's not just one bad game, it's two bad games!".... so what about the 50+ good games of hockey that actually matters? No? Not factoring that in to your assessment? Ok...

Where did I say any of that? Again, another gross misrepresentation of anything I said. I didn't say you can't judge him on anything. You can judge him as you like, and it appears you have. All I did was layout the areas where I thought there was a pattern of concern. There is nothing hypocritical in that.

4. Your analysis of Ferland kind of spells out the problem with your general analysis of players in this tournament. He has not "greatly" improved his chances of being an NHL player, he has simply shown he deserves to be where he is: an NHL prospect. This tournament isn't going to put anyone on a roster. 4 exhibition games mean about 1000% more to the big clubs than 3 prospect games. Sorry, but the guy isn't any closer to being in the NHL, he's simply showed them he should be considered for a training camp spot, which he likely already was anyway. That's it. It's still more likely that he never laces up for more than a cup of coffee in the NHL, but do I hope he becomes the next Lucic like some people here? You bet I do!

The fact that he showed them he is worthy of a training camp slot, and not immediately dispatched to Abbottsford, means he's improved his potential to reach the NHL.

5. Lastly, this Baertschi attitude thing you're harping about, I'm not sure I know if you've followed the guy at all or what, but you're pretty clearly making a few things up and playing the guessing game. You don't know his attitude now, you don't know what his thought process is, so why are you guessing?

Who is guessing? It is obvious to anyone watching. He isn't engaging the play, isn't making the effort of the other players, and he stands out because of this. Or are you suggesting Ward and Ftorek benched him for that stretch of the second game because they were saving him for the main camp? I don't think that was the case as Baertschi picked up his game in the final half of the third period and looked pretty good.

You also mention his attitude when he was sent down to the A. You clearly don't remember this at all. He was DISTRAUGHT. The kid looked so disappointed and confused. He worked so hard and it wasnt working for him, wouldnt that be hard on you? Afterwards he went on to pot 26 points in 32 games, so I'm not sure what you mean when you use it as an example, but the kid overcame the crushing disappointment of being sent down and earned himself a spot back on the NHL roster. Not sure where you gather a negative comment from that, but you somehow managed to, so good for you.

I recall things differently. I recall comments from those watching the Heat say Baertschi was sulking and not putting his heart into the game at all. He turned it around and got the call backup when the Flames threw the towel in and performed pretty well. Does that give him the right to show up at development camp or the young stars tournament and be a non-factor? Not for a guy that wants to be the star player and leader on the hockey club. Again, this is a kid that said he wanted to be the leader and the go-to guy on the team. He pretty well says as much in this article.

Baertschi's lofty ambitions

“Some day, I really want to be that guy who is the face of the franchise,” Baertschi said Monday when the team gathered for the final time at the Saddledome. “I want to be able to do that.”


He also mentioned the up and down season he had and how much growth he had to experience.



“I learned a lot about myself,” Baertschi said. “I learned a lot about this team here, about the coaches here. I know now what to expect next year. I understand the game much more now. I understand that I have a big summer ahead of me. I’ve got to get stronger so I’m ready to battle against big guys out there. You have to win more than 50% of your battles.

“It was my first year as a pro and I learned a lot about hard work. What I did before wasn’t even close to certain things I saw here. There’s a lot more muscle I can build.”

“Personally, I wish I had a better season overall. I wish the whole season was like the last two weeks I spent up here,” he said. “But you can’t change it. It happened. I’m really fortunate it happened. Too much success too early, later on might hurt you. Going down when it doesn’t work and climbing up will help.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Some of you are reading far too much into a prospects tournament.

Sven hasn't dominated but that doesn't mean he hasn't shown up or thinks he's too good for it. Ferland and Grandlund have looked great but they are far from NHL players and Ferland is still an interesting but long shot prospect.

You take these things with a massive grain of salt, a little less salt then the rookie camp a month back but still salt.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Some of you are reading far too much into a prospects tournament.

Sven hasn't dominated but that doesn't mean he hasn't shown up or thinks he's too good for it. Ferland and Grandlund have looked great but they are far from NHL players and Ferland is still an interesting but long shot prospect.

You take these things with a massive grain of salt, a little less salt then the rookie camp a month back but still salt.

Yeah, probably. I think we all just want to talk some hockey and this is the only real hockey going on at the moment. There are only so many polls and drafts that can be done to fill that emptiness of no hockey, so when some actual game play comes up it is going to be picked apart. Kind of like how the summer Team Canada camp was. It's all meant in good fun. These guys won't really be scrutinized until they make the NHL and are in their second or third season. Then people will discuss everything including how they tie their skates and what style of helmet they choose to wear.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by New Era

Yeah, probably. I think we all just want to talk some hockey and this is the only real hockey going on at the moment. :

That's the thing, it's not real hockey. It's closer to real hockey then the rookie camp scrimmage but it's still not real hockey. You say Troy Ward benched Sven, it could be that or it could be he was sitting a more established guy to see what others could do. These aren't real games, so the motives behind playing a guy more or less aren't the same like an actual professional game.

Lots of different reasons why X happens to Y during stuff like this. It's not as cut and dry as X has been sulking so we're sitting him to the bench.

Grain of salt.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by New Era

Yeah, probably. I think we all just want to talk some hockey and this is the only real hockey going on at the moment. There are only so many polls and drafts that can be done to fill that emptiness of no hockey, so when some actual game play comes up it is going to be picked apart. Kind of like how the summer Team Canada camp was. It's all meant in good fun. These guys won't really be scrutinized until they make the NHL and are in their second or third season. Then people will discuss everything including how they tie their skates and what style of helmet they choose to wear.

I think the big thing that gets overlooked is that the fans care. We may not always agree on everything but we are fans, we do like to think we know a thing or two about hockey! I thought your last post summed up a lot of good points about Baertschi, "definitely we want him to do well and we all hope he becomes the franchise player he wants to be!" After all it was Baertschi that gave us hope, started the youth movement and graced us with his exciting play and youthful attitude!

A little over protective, maybe but those are our boys!

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

That's the thing, it's not real hockey. It's closer to real hockey then the rookie camp scrimmage but it's still not real hockey. You say Troy Ward benched Sven, it could be that or it could be he was sitting a more established guy to see what others could do. These aren't real games, so the motives behind playing a guy more or less aren't the same like an actual professional game.

Lots of different reasons why X happens to Y during stuff like this. It's not as cut and dry as X has been sulking so we're sitting him to the bench.

Grain of salt.

That is a possibility. Unlikely, but a possibility. I think that saying this is not real hockey is a slap in the face to the guys out there playing, many of them playing for a professional contract. If the teams did not see this as real hockey, or any value in having their players participate, they would not send their teams to this event. They obviously see this as an opportunity to measure their young players and see what they have. Of course the true test is training camp and exhibition games, but is that real hockey either?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by strombad

Junior proficiency does NOT a star player make! I'm not breaking ground by calling him a 3rd liner, it's exactly what he looks like he's headed for.

I'm not sure exactly how you're defining Yelle as some sort of insult. Solid defensively, tough on opponents, low offensive output. Career 3rd/4th line guy but a mainstay in the NHL. That's Horvat. In fact, Horvat has lower offensive output than Yelle had in junior.

Horvat - 131GP 91P
Yelle - 187GP 204P

For comparisons sake:
Stajan - 182GP 204P
Belanger - 192GP 240P
Nichol - 137GP 157P
Stoll - 245GP 286P
Talbot - 249GP 299P

All 3rd line guys who play at least somewhat similar styles to Horvat. All produced more than a point per game in their junior career.

Stats don't mean everything, but thinking of him as anything more than a 3rd liner in the vein of the above is the only thing that could be considered a joke. He's going to be good, but you'd be a goof to say he's got top line potential.

You're reading way too much into his junior stats so far. They don't mean much at all.

How many games of his have you seen? He looks like a 2nd liner to me based on what I saw of him in the Mem cup last year. We'll get another chance to see him at the Mem cup this year as London is hosting.

He just went top 10 in a very strong draft year. And the scouting reports did not peg him as a checking line player unlike lets say a guy like Malhotra who went top 10 in his draft year and had pretty terrible stats in his draft year.

So I still don't see a strong argument as to why he's a checking line player. You watch the kid and he's got scoring line skill. Your statistical analysis is flawed and doesn't prove anything.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

I am beyond baffled in regards to the questions about Monahan's skating.

People should go easy on the kid. He's going to be on the roster full time this season.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by strombad

Junior proficiency does NOT a star player make! I'm not breaking ground by calling him a 3rd liner, it's exactly what he looks like he's headed for.

I'm not sure exactly how you're defining Yelle as some sort of insult. Solid defensively, tough on opponents, low offensive output. Career 3rd/4th line guy but a mainstay in the NHL. That's Horvat. In fact, Horvat has lower offensive output than Yelle had in junior.

Horvat - 131GP 91P
Yelle - 187GP 204P

For comparisons sake:
Stajan - 182GP 204P
Belanger - 192GP 240P
Nichol - 137GP 157P
Stoll - 245GP 286P
Talbot - 249GP 299P

All 3rd line guys who play at least somewhat similar styles to Horvat. All produced more than a point per game in their junior career.

Stats don't mean everything, but thinking of him as anything more than a 3rd liner in the vein of the above is the only thing that could be considered a joke. He's going to be good, but you'd be a goof to say he's got top line potential.

Are you seriously comparing a 17 year old player's career CHL stats with guys who played to age 19 or 20 in the CHL? I mean, really? Do you honestly think Ryan Howse's 51 goals as a 19 year old should be compared straight across with Evander Kane's 48 as a 17 year old when discussing future potential? Not to mention you're comparing numbers across different leagues and from 20+ years ago without even considering the disparity in league scoring.

Not one of those players had career point per game numbers at Horvat's age. There's reason Horvat was taken top 10 in a very strong draft while none of those guys was even taken in the 1st round and that's because he projects to be a much better player. Will he hit his ceiling? Who knows, but writing him off as a 3rd line grinder 2 months after he his draft is foolish at the best of times, and completely asinine if the sum of your evidence is some 19 year olds' CHL stats from up to 20 years ago.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Are you seriously comparing a 17 year old player's career CHL stats with guys who played to age 19 or 20 in the CHL? I mean, really? Do you honestly think Ryan Howse's 51 goals as a 19 year old should be compared straight across with Evander Kane's 48 as a 17 year old when discussing future potential? Not to mention you're comparing numbers across different leagues and from 20+ years ago without even considering the disparity in league scoring.

Not one of those players had career point per game numbers at Horvat's age. There's reason Horvat was taken top 10 in a very strong draft while none of those guys was even taken in the 1st round and that's because he projects to be a much better player. Will he hit his ceiling? Who knows, but writing him off as a 3rd line grinder 2 months after he his draft is foolish at the best of times, and completely asinine if the sum of your evidence is some 19 year olds' CHL stats from up to 20 years ago.

Very well said.