[News] Brian Burke joining Calgary Flames as President of Hockey Operations

[TurnedTheCorner]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Quite frankly i see it more as Burke GM, Feaster AGM, and Weisbrod head of scouting. I am sure many posters will disagree with me.

Yes, because that is 100% incorrect.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Exactly. It isn't like Burke traded picks for an aging star. He added a young front line player who has performed well. Kessel is an odd duck to be sure, and not a guy that should be your franchise player. But his stats speak for themselves.

At best the trade is shaping up to be a marginal win for the Bruins, but I would not rank it among even the top 10 bad deals from the last few years. It isn't nearly as bad as some people make it out to be.

So, mostly irrelevant question, but: Would you trade Monahan and the #2 overall pick next year (assuming we suck the way everyone expects) for Kessel?

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Glad the flames did their due diligence. That said, i can't really see why they thought Poile would leave Nashville? Flames can give out any title they want, at best it's a co-gm opertation now.

Quite frankly i see it more as Burke GM, Feaster AGM, and Weisbrod head of scouting. I am sure many posters will disagree with me.

Burke has flat-out stated that he will not be talking to other GM's or FA's in regards to player transactions. He merely will be a sounding board for Jay and John to bounce ideas off of and for potential advice. It'll still be Jay and John's show regarding trades, FA signings, extensions, drafting/scouting etc. But it gives me comfort that they're directly reporting to a hockey guy now, instead of a businessman.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

So, mostly irrelevant question, but: Would you trade Monahan and the #2 overall pick next year (assuming we suck the way everyone expects) for Kessel?

Neither would Burke.

Kessel isn't 21 years old anymore. And I doubt Burke thinks the Flames are close to contending, like he though the Leafs were close to contending.

[Change of Heart]

Great move by the Flames organization!

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Quite frankly i see it more as Burke GM, Feaster AGM, and Weisbrod head of scouting. I am sure many posters will disagree with me.

More like: Burke Super GM, Feaster GM, Conroy Mini GM, Weisbrod AGM.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Wolven

More like: Burke Super GM, Feaster GM, Conroy Mini GM, Weisbrod AGM.

And they combine into Voltron

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Neither would Burke.

Kessel isn't 21 years old anymore. And I doubt Burke thinks the Flames are close to contending, like he though the Leafs were close to contending.

If he thought the Leafs were close then, that only argues my belief that Burke was vastly overrated as a GM.

And you're right. Kessel isn't 21 anymore. But he is still young 25 and now has a track record such that people are arguing the trade shouldn't be considered a loss for Toronto. But, if Burke wouldn't do such a trade now, I would count that to the good as a sign he can learn from mistakes.

[Leafs67]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

having kessel on the team has not really turned the tide on the leafs team during his tenure there. i still think the leafs would have been a stronger franchise wiht the 2 first round picks. getting 2nd overall, and likely better than 9th overall they got the next year, as they wouldn't have had kessel (they didn't make the playoffs that year either of course).

i know seguin's value has dropped dramatically after this last playoff run, but over the last 2 seasons, he's been a 0.77 points/game player, almost a 30 goal scorer and 70 point getter during the last full nhl season.

There's a luxury in having a top line prospect in an org that has a plethora of veteran top line talent already as the pressure and responsibility can be eased on the youngster. However, i think it can also inhibit large growth as they are not given the opportunity to play the only way they can be successful (as the go-to, top line guys) on the team. Seguin still performed admirably in the situation. I believe Seguin will be just fine and be a top 10 Center in the NHL as early as this coming season.

so i really believe you can compare the leafs today: a team that were the worst statistical team last year despite making the playoffs and a team that is still very much a bubble team at best in the east versus a team with a guy like Seguin hitting his 3rd year in the league and trending towards a top 10 Center in the league, plus another top prospect making their push into the league. At worst hamilton as it stands today, but like i said, without kessel that #9 pick would have likely been a top 5'ish pick (landeskog, huberdeau, larsson, coutourier, scheifele, zibahenjad).

had the leafs/burke been patient in 2009, i believe they would have been in a stronger place today and be in a position to start contending soon, rather than having 1 playoff to show for the kessel trade and lots of questions coming (ie. are they still a playoff team, some big UFA decisions coming like kessel himself, etc).

i am sorry to harp on this, i actually love discussing the kessel trade, as it was such a drastic trade at the time and one that can be debated to no end (which makes it fun).

Given the state of the Leafs organizational depth at the time, those prospects would have been rushed and ruined. Tyler Seguin playing bottom 6 on a deep Stanley Cup champion team isn't the same Tyler Seguin you end up with by forcing him to do the heavy lifting on what was a glorified beer league club between 2008-2010. He'd have been run out of town. Burke recognized as much and made the right move at the right time. Now that the Leafs have some pieces in place, grooming prospects organically a la Detroit is an option. It wasn't always the case.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Burke has flat-out stated that he will not be talking to other GM's or FA's in regards to player transactions. He merely will be a sounding board for Jay and John to bounce ideas off of and for potential advice. It'll still be Jay and John's show regarding trades, FA signings, extensions, drafting/scouting etc. But it gives me comfort that they're directly reporting to a hockey guy now, instead of a businessman.

I believed that when i saw the presser. I watched and listened to 5-6 individual interviews with Burke after the presser. He contradicted himself in almost every interview.

One interview, won't be scouting. Another interview, if a feel like going to scout, i am going to go and scout.

One interview, Feaster will come to him with trades. In another interview, if i have an idea for a transaction then i will tell Feaster what i am thinking.

On one tv interview he said that he would not be talking to the media. He ended the interview saying i will come back on your show any time you want me.

If anybody thinks Burke is going to just sit in a room, waiting for Feaster to pitch him an idea, so he can grade and critique it like a University professor , they are kidding themselves.

Also, Burke not only has close ties with some GM's, but he is close firends with some. Do you really think Feaster will do the talking on the phone when dealing with them? That would be stupid. You use every advantage you can get.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

So, mostly irrelevant question, but: Would you trade Monahan and the #2 overall pick next year (assuming we suck the way everyone expects) for Kessel?

Well we haven't drafted 2nd overall in our existance of a quarter of a century. But if you told me we traded (say, top 10 pick) and Monohan for a 21 year old, 35-40 goal scorer, but I be outraged? I probably would not be outraged.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

So, mostly irrelevant question, but: Would you trade Monahan and the #2 overall pick next year (assuming we suck the way everyone expects) for Kessel?

Apples and oranges. There was no way of knowing that the future 1st rounders would both be so high. I think Burke was expecting Kessel would help make them a playoff team therefore making those picks in the late teens. Also, Kessel at that time was a 21 year old budding superstar (depending on who you talk to). A slightly more comparable scenario would be if we would trade 2 future first rounders (and a 3rd) for someone like Landeskog. But it's still not a perfect comparison because even if that trade did happen, I don't think anyone would think having Landeskog would put us in the playoffs and make the traded picks in the high teens range. We would likely have top 5 picks for the next couple years with or without him, so no, I wouldn't give up those 2 picks for Landeskog. Hindsight is always 20/20, but if you look at the trade the day it happened with all the surrounding variables at the time it wasn't a bad idea. This trade is now 4 years old and has been debated to death, maybe it's time to let it die and look forward to the positives Burke will bring to the Flames.

[MolsonInBothHands]

This is only a hunch. But my gut tells me one of the first moves will be to replace Hartley with more of a hard ass coach. If I were a praying man, it would be to beg that it isn't Wilson.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Leafs67

Given the state of the Leafs organizational depth at the time, those prospects would have been rushed and ruined. Tyler Seguin playing bottom 6 on a deep Stanley Cup champion team isn't the same Tyler Seguin you end up with by forcing him to do the heavy lifting on what was a glorified beer league club between 2008-2010. He'd have been run out of town. Burke recognized as much and made the right move at the right time. Now that the Leafs have some pieces in place, grooming prospects organically a la Detroit is an option. It wasn't always the case.

but not having good prospects cannot be the reason to not to go out and draft lottery picks. living in toronto, the city was ready for a rebuild, so rushing seguin wouldn't have been a must (similar to how many fans on CP will be just fine, heck maybe even a bit relieved, if monahan goes back to ottawa this fall).

It also makes little sense to go out and invest 2 first rounders to get a 21 year old, as it poses the same problem (putting the load of a franchise on the shoulders of a young player without the necessary talent around him).

he made a major blunder in completely miscalculating the quality of his roster and giving up 1st round picks, despite not having anything close to a playoff grade team.

Just like a bad avs team traded 1st round picks for varlamov... bad teams just shouldn't trade first round picks. sure if top tier players are available i suppose you gotta look at it, but kessel/varlamov are not top tier players. kessel is a solid piece, but is not a player you build your franchise around.

[bluck]

Whoever doesn't think that Burke is now running the show is just fooling themselves. Feaster may have the title as GM but come on deep down you know this is now Burkes team to do how he sees fit. His opinion carries a lot more weight then Feaster or Wisebrods and I couldn't be happier

[Leafs67]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

but not having good prospects cannot be the reason to not to go out and draft lottery picks. living in toronto, the city was ready for a rebuild, so rushing seguin wouldn't have been a must (similar to how many fans on CP will be just fine, heck maybe even a bit relieved, if monahan goes back to ottawa this fall).

It also makes little sense to go out and invest 2 first rounders to get a 21 year old, as it poses the same problem (putting the load of a franchise on the shoulders of a young player without the necessary talent around him).

he made a major blunder in completely miscalculating the quality of his roster and giving up 1st round picks, despite not having anything close to a playoff grade team.

Just like a bad avs team traded 1st round picks for varlamov... bad teams just shouldn't trade first round picks. sure if top tier players are available i suppose you gotta look at it, but kessel/varlamov are not top tier players. kessel is a solid piece, but is not a player you build your franchise around.

Burkes previous dealings with Kessel with USA Hockey suggested that even at 21 he had the correct demeanour and NHL experience to better withstand the Toronto marketplace than those picks. And your assumption about Toronto's willingness to accept a long term rebuild is actually not accurate. Toronto is driven by corporate money. If the product stinks, you lose that key piece. They couldn't afford to alienate corporate partners with a long term rebuild, thus Burke was brought in to overhaul on the fly.

[kipperfan]

It's taken me a while to weigh in due to a busy week, but....YES!!! In my opinion the Flames have been making the wrong moves with regards to upper management for the past 5+ years and am extremely glad to finally have a guy like Brian Burke leading this team.

I could be wrong, but I think Feaster is now a lame duck and I would be rather shocked if he is still with the team at this time next year, same goes for Hartley. And frankly I hope they're both gone, neither has proven anything and a guy like Burke should have the luxury of having his own guys in place, unless of course he really takes to Jay and Bob for some strange reason.

For the first time in what feels like a long time I am really excited about this team again and can't wait to see how Burke goes about his business over the next couple of years.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

So, mostly irrelevant question, but: Would you trade Monahan and the #2 overall pick next year (assuming we suck the way everyone expects) for Kessel?

Different situations - Toronto was in a different state than Calgary with different pressures. And Kessel was that much younger at the time. At his current age I wouldn't do it for sure. But I understand why the deal was made at the time, and maintain that it certainly hasn't been a disaster for the Leafs.

Trading high picks for young front line players is a valid approach.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Leafs67

Burkes previous dealings with Kessel with USA Hockey suggested that even at 21 he had the correct demeanour and NHL experience to better withstand the Toronto marketplace than those picks. And your assumption about Toronto's willingness to accept a long term rebuild is actually not accurate. Toronto is driven by corporate money. If the product stinks, you lose that key piece. They couldn't afford to alienate corporate partners with a long term rebuild, thus Burke was brought in to overhaul on the fly.

the product has sucked regardless of the kessel deal, yet the ACC has been one of the toughest tickets to come by at reasonable rates throughout this period.

at the end of the day, there was a miscalculation that the roster was good enough to justify giving up 2 first rounders that they thought would be late picks to get a player that would take them over the top. There was a miscalculation that kessel could be a player that could elevate the team to be a playoff team over the term of his contract. People can point to individual stats as much as they want, but who cares, the leafs made the playoffs once during his contract term (last year pending). Kessel has not done enough to justify the cost to the franchise (2 lottery/top5 picks in successive years to build around).

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

So, mostly irrelevant question, but: Would you trade Monahan and the #2 overall pick next year (assuming we suck the way everyone expects) for Kessel?

As others have stated, it's contextually very different. That said, bringing it into a more comparable context. If you had asked at the start of last season if I'd have traded 2 first rounders for Seguin (similar age/numbers to Kessel at time of original trade) I'd say yes.