[News] Flames introduce paperless tickets

[GGG]

The real goal of this thing is the secondary market. You eliminate hassels of people buying fake tickets, you take 25% of the scapled value of tickets and since there is no longer a secure way to sell hard tickets the public is less confident in buying from the non flames scalpers.

Really a great plan to derive revenue for the team. For me as long as they keep ticket forwarding permenantly free then I support this move. I spent a lot of money emailing out tickets to people over the years.

[taffeyb]

Originally Posted by GGG

The real goal of this thing is the secondary market. You eliminate hassels of people buying fake tickets, you take 25% of the scapled value of tickets and since there is no longer a secure way to sell hard tickets the public is less confident in buying from the non flames scalpers.

Really a great plan to derive revenue for the team. For me as long as they keep ticket forwarding permenantly free then I support this move. I spent a lot of money emailing out tickets to people over the years.

I understand the point about scalpers, but, in a couple of years, once people are used to the fact that tickets are PDF'ed, what's to stop someone from printing off multiple copies of the PDFs and selling each one of them. At least with the old tickets, there is a bit more legitimacy to them.

If I was a non-legit scalper, I could print off multiple copies and sell them at a discount to STH holder price. I would probably sell tonnes of these...If I were to buy a PDF'ed ticket, I would line up 2 hours early to get into the Dome as the first use of the ticket is valid.

It would guess that this will be a problem in the upcoming couple of years...

[moon]

Originally Posted by taffeyb

I understand the point about scalpers, but, in a couple of years, once people are used to the fact that tickets are PDF'ed, what's to stop someone from printing off multiple copies of the PDFs and selling each one of them. At least with the old tickets, there is a bit more legitimacy to them.

If I was a non-legit scalper, I could print off multiple copies and sell them at a discount to STH holder price. I would probably sell tonnes of these...If I were to buy a PDF'ed ticket, I would line up 2 hours early to get into the Dome as the first use of the ticket is valid.

It would guess that this will be a problem in the upcoming couple of years...

I would think multiple people showing up with copies of your tickets, especially multiple times a season, would probably put an end to that very quickly.

[ken0042]

Moon- that would be true if somebody was foolish enough to sell their season tickets that way. What I'm thinking is it something like this.

- You as a STH sell your tickets to me. Perhaps electronically, perhaps through the ticket exchange. I pay face value.
- I print off 10 copies of each ticket; sell them for 1/2 of face value.
- You get the call asking why you sold the ticket 10 times over; I get off scott free.

There could even be issues with somebody photocopying tickets; or you could have somebody photoshopping tickets. I could take your Green seats I bought off you, and change the section and row number to be Red tickets. I sell them to somebody else, and they get into the arena fine. It's just when they get to their seats that the problem shows itself.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Moon- that would be true if somebody was foolish enough to sell their season tickets that way. What I'm thinking is it something like this.

- You as a STH sell your tickets to me. Perhaps electronically, perhaps through the ticket exchange. I pay face value.
- I print off 10 copies of each ticket; sell them for 1/2 of face value.
- You get the call asking why you sold the ticket 10 times over; I get off scott free.

There could even be issues with somebody photocopying tickets; or you could have somebody photoshopping tickets. I could take your Green seats I bought off you, and change the section and row number to be Red tickets. I sell them to somebody else, and they get into the arena fine. It's just when they get to their seats that the problem shows itself.

That seems like an awful lot of work for something that works very little of the time (i.e. how often are you selling a lot of tickets to a Flames game this year even at half price.)


And couldn't that still happen now just with the person having to pay a 2.50 charge instead of it being free?

[karl262]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Moon- that would be true if somebody was foolish enough to sell their season tickets that way. What I'm thinking is it something like this.

- You as a STH sell your tickets to me. Perhaps electronically, perhaps through the ticket exchange. I pay face value.
- I print off 10 copies of each ticket; sell them for 1/2 of face value.
- You get the call asking why you sold the ticket 10 times over; I get off scott free.

There could even be issues with somebody photocopying tickets; or you could have somebody photoshopping tickets. I could take your Green seats I bought off you, and change the section and row number to be Red tickets. I sell them to somebody else, and they get into the arena fine. It's just when they get to their seats that the problem shows itself.

I can certainly see this type of fraud increasing in the coming season, now that there is not really any such thing as "hard copy tickets" and people can't question the authenticity when that's the only way to buy tickets in secondary markets. Nobody is going to sell a pair of tickets on CP or kijiji and let the buyer use their card for the evening.

I think this is a mistake. One of my favourite things about being a season ticket holder is getting the package of tickets and seeing how they all look.

[taffeyb]

Originally Posted by moon

That seems like an awful lot of work for something that works very little of the time (i.e. how often are you selling a lot of tickets to a Flames game this year even at half price.)


And couldn't that still happen now just with the person having to pay a 2.50 charge instead of it being free?

Moon...I think what we're getting at is that there are some people who are not as honest as us. Someone can get a legitimate PDF'ed ticket and sell it numerous times. I can tell you that you can sell tickets to any Toronto game over and over and over...

It wouldn't be a lot of work...print 10 copies, put an ad on kijiji using a disposable phone as a contact #, meet somewhere downtown, take the cash...sell 10 REDs at a discount of...say...$75 each...that's $750...

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

The ability to email a ticket and print multiple copies has been around for years, why would it suddenly become a cottage industry? For that matter the ability to copy a physical ticket has been around for years. All they do is scan the ticket, not take it.

I don't think anything has changed. If anything this is a step toward more security eventually.

[browna]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Moon- that would be true if somebody was foolish enough to sell their season tickets that way. What I'm thinking is it something like this.

- You as a STH sell your tickets to me. Perhaps electronically, perhaps through the ticket exchange. I pay face value.
- I print off 10 copies of each ticket; sell them for 1/2 of face value.
- You get the call asking why you sold the ticket 10 times over; I get off scott free.

There could even be issues with somebody photocopying tickets; or you could have somebody photoshopping tickets. I could take your Green seats I bought off you, and change the section and row number to be Red tickets. I sell them to somebody else, and they get into the arena fine. It's just when they get to their seats that the problem shows itself.

While there is no foolproof way to stop fraud, maybe the best idea is to force email forwarding through the system, even if you wanted to reprint your own tickets. In that case, you would have to email yourself.

Because, through the system, when you email, the Ticketmaster system emails the ticket from within their program, and obviously has an electronic path as to which email (and when) the tickets were sent by you, the account holder.

That way, if the person you sell to decides to copy multiple times and sell them, you can prove that you sent the tickets to someone, as opposed to you being the one who reprinted and copied. Not that some generic email address is that trackable, nor that it can't be some dummy one you setup (though I assume they have the ability to track via IP address as well) but it's one more way to take the original owners off the hook in the situation you're describing and assure an electronic trail, as opposed to me reprinting my ticket off, then emailing it as an attachment to someone (as was done by us a few years back, when reprints were free, but e-forwarding cost $, even though the same program)

[getbak]

The fact of the matter is the Flames don't have any incentive to make it easier or more secure to resell tickets outside of the system they're going to provide. It's actually better for them for people to be doubtful of the authenticity of tickets they buy from Kijiji or from Broncos hat guy and his greasy friends.

[Stay Golden]

Quick update I spoke to my rep and she will have all our ST printed off for us tomorrow.
She said they are printing off several STH hard copy tickets.
In fact when I called I said I received our new STH package and... before I could finish she laughed and said you want to have all your tickets printed off and said ya I know we have been fielding calls most of the morning.
It is good to know that the Flames realized that while paperless is a good e solution it is not the best representation for gifting tickets or for us treating business clients. And it definitely is not ideal for multiple couples sharing ST.

I maintain it is a good idea for an e-ticket is made available for some STH as a paperless solution even though lol it really isn't a paperless solution is it, but it should not have been the primary package the Flames presented us with. It should have been the secondary option in which every STH were contacted 60-90 days ago with a link to request e-tickets if that is the route you want to go instead.
Otherwise hard copies go out as per usual.
As usual the Flames customer service was top notch and quick to fix the problem created by the brass.
They deserve a pat on the back for what they do!

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

Regarding 'having something' - Correct. Whether someone is bringing their kid to a first game and wants the souvenir, or whether you are trying to impress a client and give them something NICE to remember you by, a proper ticket will always do better than some silly laserjet 8.5 x 11 piece of paper...

Incompetent - personally I believe incorrect... rather labelling your point of view as 'inexperienced'.
I ask you to think it through... Before you could just go and arrange tickets from the corporate 'stash' and hand them out. Once gone, they were gone, and could never be doubled up. NOW you could need someone to actually track what has been emailed out and what hasn't. It's also an effort now to see what upcoming game is still available. Remember also that the people purchasing tickets, maintaining tickets, and handing out tickets, are often not always the same 1 or 2 people.

Reading the previous comments, there was someone who had an issue with Oiler tickets from last year that were emailed out twice and someone got turned away at the stadium door. Nobody wants egg on their face with a scenario like the above, so now you need some sort of solid process around something like hockey tickets.

Things also can be forgotten (and do in the fast paced business world). That's why you now need to add it to one employees list of 'todo's ( I certainly didn't mean that was their only job function though) or create a generic spreadsheet that anyone/everyone can manage (and hopefully will).

But my point is this is all a greater effort around HOCKEY TICKETS. It shouldn't be that complicated.

I'm happy the Flames are hearing the complaints and are considering options for the future. I'll really be happy when I see a different approach next year and hope it isn't just placating us this year and figure we'll get used to things.

Really? Let me make sure I understand your point re managing tickets correctly. With physical tickets, you don't need to track them because once you hand them out they are gone, and that's how you know they are gone? Fair I guess, but how is that any different than the email option? Once you email the ticket, its gone. You can't email it again to another person, so you won't double up. It's exactly the same as a physical ticket, you can't give a physical ticket twice, just like you can't send an electronic ticket twice. Nits exactly the same.

And the need to track (if there is one) is exactly the same for both. If you don't track what you've done with your physical ticket, then the only way to know if you've given it out is to go to your booklet and see if the tickets are there. With the new method, if you don't track what you've done then you have to log into your account and see if you've already sent the ticket.

Exact same ####, just a different pile. Requires no more or no less tracking than a physical ticket, it all depends on how organized you want to be.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Once you email the ticket, its gone. You can't email it again to another person, so you won't double up.

Why is that? I can send the same email to as many people as I choose. Is there something on your computer that deletes your files as soon as you send them to somebody else?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Why is that? I can send the same email to as many people as I choose. Is there something on your computer that deletes your files as soon as you send them to somebody else?

Your ticket master account lets you know if you've already forwarded a ticket.

I guess I could forward the email from my email account over and over, but then I'm intentionally emailing a ticket I know I've already sent. Is that really a concern in this situation?

In fact, I'm quiet certain you can't forward the same ticket twice, and actually if I remember correctly, the email goes to your intended recipient not from your email address, but straight from ticket master, so you can't even re-forward the email, not that should even be an issue.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Your ticket master account lets you know if you've already forwarded a ticket.

Ah. I missed the part where we were talking about the Scum of the Earth. I thought the process involved, you know, actual forwarding of email, because people kept using that terminology. My bad.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Ah. I missed the part where we were talking about the Scum of the Earth. I thought the process involved, you know, actual forwarding of email, because people kept using that terminology. My bad.

Whether the tickets are printed or not, the scum of the earth still takes there cut in both situations, they are equally involved in both.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Whether the tickets are printed or not, the scum of the earth still takes there cut in both situations, they are equally involved in both.

Yeah, but they are not normally involved in email forwarding. I was under the impression that people were talking about sending the actual PDF file of the ticket from their own email account to someone else's. Fixed now.

[Resolute 14]

The 'scum of the earth' angle is being seriously overblown, particularly given the fact that nothing has actually changed there. This exact scenario has been possible from the first day that Ticketmaster began allowing the emailing of tickets. In fact, using a level of distrust for printed tickets to one's advantage, someone could email themselves their ticket, then scalp their now invalidated original, and go to the game with all their beers paid for by some sucker who thought that a fancy pre-printed Flames/Ticketmaster ticket was safer.

These possibilities are why ticketmaster has been changing how ticket forwarding works recently. It is now much harder to forward or print multiple copies of a ticket than it used to be. It can still be done, of course, but one has to work at it a bit more.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The 'scum of the earth' angle is being seriously overblown, particularly given the fact that nothing has actually changed there. This exact scenario has been possible from the first day that Ticketmaster began allowing the emailing of tickets.

I guess I should clarify; I was more going against the point that this system somehow makes things more secure. A comment had been made "You eliminate hassels of people buying fake tickets." To me I don't see how this is the case. In past seasons people may have felt more comfortable with the hard copy tickets, and cautious about the printed PDF versions. Going forward if all that exists are the printed PDF versions, people will accept them and not give them a second thought.

As it was last season, if somebody tried to sell you a printed PDF you would be suspicious.

[Resolute 14]

You are, of course, right. But I think the post you were responding to was referring to the Flames having their own re-sellers marketplace. It creates a process where you can buy and sell tickets through the team, trading a percentage of the sale for the security of knowing your ticket is valid. Caveat emptor remains the rule of the day when dealing with scalpers, kijiji and the like.