Would you support Rainbow on Hockey Unis for Sochi?

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Mmm... yeah..... "verbal condemnation" = "killing someone".

Though I often said "I hate those that hate. And realize that that is circular." I don't like that bigots, misogynists, homophobes and such make my skin crawl. And I should show them compassion because they are just sick or have been taught these things from another hateful person. But I can't. I'll just do what the good book says and "Don't Challenge The Bigoted, Misogynist, Hateful Ideas Of Others On An Empty Stomach. Eat. Then Go After The #######s."

My point was he is forcing his BELIEFS on others. He shows zero tolerance. That is not much difference.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

My point was he is forcing his BELIEFS on others. He shows zero tolerance. That is not much difference.

His beliefs of equality and basic human rights on people.....the nerve!!

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

And even if a countries rights are lower than they should be...if they are moving in the right direction that is important

Russia's law is 180 from the right direction

Originally Posted by SebC

If they're progressing, that's pretty important. Russia is going backwards. Progress can be left alone (although it can also be nudged along). Regress requires an intervention.

It seems that Qatar is moving in the right direction in the last 20 years.

Women can vote, and hold public office. They have a governmental cabinet position that deal's with women's issues. There' plenty of oppurtunity for women in the workforce there, and around 40% of women are in the workforce. They sent female athletes to the Olympics.

Freedom of religion is greater than many of the surrounding nations too, the government allows churches of other faiths to operate.

LGBT issues are still there though.

Overall, the country has been progressing.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Well...there are examples where LGBT's protest...get attacked by counter protestors and then the victims are the ones arrested.

The discriminatory laws prevent equal rights...see this

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Same mentality that those actually killing gays have, you must be proud.

Is it?
I'm going to let you explain, since you get upset when people assume you mean something different, but I'm also going to lay this out very clearly:
Intolerance towards attitudes that negatively affect others, based on their skin colour, sex, sexual orientation, or other genetically imbedded attributes
IS NOT THE SAME AS
Intolerance towards others based on their skin colour, sex, sexual orientation, or other genetically imbedded attributes

Do you see the difference? Do you see how you cannot just paint the whole thing with the "intolerance is intolerance" brush? One is intolerant of harmful attitudes directed at people. Another is intolerant of ACTUAL PEOPLE. The difference here is that you can CHANGE being homophobic, or racist, or sexist, or whatever. But you can't change being gay, or black, or a woman (well technically, but that's a different conversation), or whatever.

Based on the sentence I quoted, taking it ONLY as verbatim, not 'assuming' anything about whatever hidden meaning you'll attempt to explain later, I can only take it as this:

You believe that the people who think the nazi's should be jailed are at the very same level as the nazi's who believe Jews should be killed.

Sorry, I just like the nazi references, REALLY drives it home don't you think?

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

It seems that Qatar is moving in the right direction in the last 20 years.

Women can vote, and hold public office. They have a governmental cabinet position that deal's with women's issues. There' plenty of oppurtunity for women in the workforce there, and around 40% of women are in the workforce. They sent female athletes to the Olympics.

Freedom of religion is greater than many of the surrounding nations too, the government allows churches of other faiths to operate.

LGBT issues are still there though.

Overall, the country has been progressing.

A pretty good example given the neighbourhood

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Same mentality that those actually killing gays have, you must be proud.

Proud that I will loudly voice my opposition to those who seek to deny human rights based on sexual orientation? Proud that I'll stand up to bigots? Proud that I will not tolerate intolerance? You're damn right I am.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Russia's law is meant to avoid a slippery slope, nothing more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_A...ve_Association

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-919119.html

Protecting family values and the innocence of impressionable children.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

My point was he is forcing his BELIEFS on others. He shows zero tolerance. That is not much difference.

No one here is forcing their beliefs on anyone, everyone is just expressing their own beliefs. The Bingo has not come down from the almighty internet and imposed his will upon us all. valo403 has not showing up at your door to arrest you and give you a fine for having an opinion or for being the way that you are (but don't worry, you won't go to jail because you are a citizen).

There is a pretty massive gap that you are trying to claim is "not much diffrence".

[Itse]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Russia's law is meant to avoid a slippery slope, nothing more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_A...ve_Association

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-919119.html

Protecting family values and the innocence of impressionable children.

Yes, because those two slippery slopes have proved to be huge threats to our society.

How about this slippery slope:
http://www.thestirrer.com.au/new-rus...-for-our-kids/

“And now it is reported that his next law will remove the children of GLBT families from their homes. This will apply to biological children as well as formerly adopted ones."

My wife has a lesbian friend who lives in St. Petersburg with her wife and their two children. They basicly face the choice of either having to leave their home country, their jobs, friends and relatives behind or risk losing their children. You know, on top of living under the fear of the the cops suddenly busting through the door.

So excuse me if I don't give a flying f*** about your revolting bigotry.

[korzym12]

Here's a question:

Given how Christian persecution is present in both the West and Middle East, what is the gay community's response to those human rights violations?

In the middle east Christians are killed by the thousands.

In the West Christians are persecuted for openly believing in God and actually get called things like child molesters - particularly BY the gay community. There was a teacher who was recently in the news for sexually abusing a student - but we don't say "all teachers are child molesters" - but these allegations are thrown at EVERY priest by the gay community.

How can this community demand equal human rights for all when at the same time they insult Christians?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by korzym12

Here's a question:

Given how Christian persecution is present in both the West and Middle East, what is the gay community's response to those human rights violations?

In the middle east Christians are killed by the thousands.

In the West Christians are persecuted for openly believing in God and actually get called things like child molesters - particularly BY the gay community. There was a teacher who was recently in the news for sexually abusing a student - but we don't say "all teachers are child molesters" - but these allegations are thrown at EVERY priest by the gay community.

How can this community demand equal human rights for all when at the same time they insult Christians?

Ha, they are? Let's see some support for your outlandish claims.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Just because I am not judging a society because they aren't as tolerant as we claim to be, does not make me a hypocrite.

The problem you're having here is the basis of a very short-lived philosophical debate surrounding moral relativism. People conflate cultural relativism (which is descriptive - different cultures have different moral standards) with moral relativism (whatever is considered moral in a particular culture is moral within that context). The problem with moral relativism - well, one of many - is that it logically reduces to moral individualism. There is simply no way to defend culture-based morality alone, because the "cultural" line is arbitrary. How many people do I need to form a culture? Is my country a cultural entity? How about my region? My church? Well then why not the 30 guys and girls who I convinced to join my cult? Why not just me?

Without getting too far into it, you ultimately reach the point where a psychopath's moral compass is no more blameworthy or subject to moral criticism than the average person's.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

I can't believe that you are comparing the LBGT situation with that of Christians...

[Cole436]

mikey_the_redneck
Lifetime Suspension

About time.

[JohnnyB]

This thread is so emotionally charged as to be totally defunct. I'm strongly on the side of supporting LGBT equality, opposing the law in Russia and would be proud to have Canada or individual Canadian athletes making some kind of visible protest at the Olympics, but even I'm hesitant to post in this thread for fear of accusations that I'm a backward bigot because I'm willing to accept that my moral position is not absolute and that people whose moral views regarding gays are negative should still be entitled to express them and argue for them as long as they are not inciting violence.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by korzym12

Here's a question:

Given how Christian persecution is present in both the West and Middle East, what is the gay community's response to those human rights violations?

In the middle east Christians are killed by the thousands.

In the West Christians are persecuted for openly believing in God and actually get called things like child molesters - particularly BY the gay community. There was a teacher who was recently in the news for sexually abusing a student - but we don't say "all teachers are child molesters" - but these allegations are thrown at EVERY priest by the gay community.

How can this community demand equal human rights for all when at the same time they insult Christians?

In the middle east gays are not only illegal but it is legally punishable by death. Borrowing Kidder's map:

Spoiler!

Having said that, if Russia made Christianity illegal in the same way that they are trying to make being gay illegal then I would probably be saying the exact same things about Russia.

The main difference is that you choose religion. Just like how I choose to play hockey or drink vast amounts of alcohol. While I agree that people should be allowed to make that choice to have religion or not, it is not comparible to someone being born gay / straight or being born with a specific colour of skin / hair / eyes / etc.

Ironically, the Christian priests that rape little boys are likely the people that this Russian law are trying to target to protect the children from.

Anyway, is much as you might think the gay community says bad things about priests, I feel pretty confident that the vast christian community says worse things about gays.

[photon]

And I think there's a difference between a person from the gay community saying bad things about all priests and ALL people from the gay community saying that. Every group of people has some dumb people in it that say and do dumb things.

Just like I don't judge all Christians by what Westbro says and does, and I don't judge all Christian denominations by the Catholic Church's systemic problem of protecting sex offenders, I also wouldn't judge the gay community by the words or actions of a few.

Just because a Flames fan acted like an ass at a Vancouver game doesn't make all Flames fans asses.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I wouldn't want to guess what percentage of silent people are anti-gay, but I think its a safe assumption that with the reactions it stirs up the majority of anti-gay people will just stay silent to avoid being treated like they are worse than nothing.

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

That's a shame.

Originally Posted by valo403

That's too bad, they deserve that treatment.

No it's not. As far as I'm concerned these people can stay quiet and keep their bigotry to themselves until they all die, and the sooner the better. The notion that bigots are forced to secret away their true feelings for fear of rejection by a society that won't tolerate them is deliciously ironic.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by photon

And I think there's a difference between a person from the gay community saying bad things about all priests and ALL people from the gay community saying that. Every group of people has some dumb people in it that say and do dumb things.

Just like I don't judge all Christians by what Westbro says and does, and I don't judge all Christian denominations by the Catholic Church's systemic problem of protecting sex offenders, I also wouldn't judge the gay community by the words or actions of a few.

Just because a Flames fan acted like an ass at a Vancouver game doesn't make all Flames fans asses.

The exception to the rule is Vancouver fans, we know they are all D-bags.