Jokerit signs Leland Irving

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah I feel when you invest a 1st round draft pick in a guy like Irving you have to give them every chance possible to succeed and it seems like Ward is always looking for the players that best help him win. I'm all for that if he's coaching the Flames but there's more to the Heat than winning hockey games. I wouldn't care if the Heat was a mediocre team as long as the Flames prospects were getting ample chance to develope and make the NHL. Not sure if that is happening under Ward. It was pretty ridiculous that the guy that the Flames annointed as their backup going into the 2013 season was the guy Ward had burried as 3rd string.

I really got the impression Troy Ward's objective was to get the Heat the W's, not act as a development team.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah I feel when you invest a 1st round draft pick in a guy like Irving you have to give them every chance possible to succeed and it seems like Ward is always looking for the players that best help him win. I'm all for that if he's coaching the Flames but there's more to the Heat than winning hockey games. I wouldn't care if the Heat was a mediocre team as long as the Flames prospects were getting ample chance to develope and make the NHL. Not sure if that is happening under Ward. It was pretty ridiculous that the guy that the Flames annointed as their backup going into the 2013 season was the guy Ward had burried as 3rd string.

how irving was handled last year during the lockout, was definitely one of the more disappointing things over the past few years outside of team performance.

[you got PHANUEFED]

The kid will be back one day and will be one of those guys that is a top 10 goalie in the league.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I really got the impression Troy Ward's objective was to get the Heat the W's, not act as a development team.

Agreed. It's pretty easy for an AHL head coach to ride established career AHL players to a competitive team compared to playing young, just out of junior players in key roles and letting them learn from thier mistakes on the job. It seemed like once a player got in his dog house they were done and IMO that's not the way you develope players. Jim Playfair was responsible for the developement of Backlund, Breen, Bouma, Brodie and I haven't seen much from Ward as Horak made the Flames before he got his hands on him otherwise there hasn't been a lot of developement going on in Abbotsford. Maybe it's no coincidence that guys like Nemisz and Irving's careers nosedived once Playfair left.

[FlamesAddiction]

It's just as much a possibility that they just didn't think too much of him as a player. It's not like NHL teams were beating down his door by the sounds of it.

[Henry Fool]

It's a one month test period, to be precise, but the goalie situation isn't that great with Jokerit so it's a nice chance for Irving. Can make a big difference for his career.

[Massonite]

Best of luck Leland. Hope to see you back in the NHL someday!

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by you got PHANUEFED

The kid will be back one day and will be one of those guys that is a top 10 goalie in the league.

I will bet you anything this will never happen. Sometimes players development stalls early and they never reach the level scouts think they can. If Irving returns to the NHL it will be as a backup at best. Obviously the Flames have taken a good long look at this kid and concluded he is never going to make it. He was given more than enough opportunity and could not even hold a starter job in the AHL let alone a job in the NHL. The fact that no other NHL team saw him as having potential and took a pass on him as well should speak volumes. Could he possibly still become an NHL goalie? Sure, it is possible but very highly unlikely.
Put him in the bust bin with Chucko, Fata, and the rest and move on.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by neo45

Never take a goalie in the first round

who wears glasses on draft day

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

RE: Troy Ward.

I respect everyone's opinions about him, but I'll disagree with the majority of them in this thread so far. Erick Estrada and I have debated this in the General Heat Discussion Thread before.

More evidence speaks to the fact that he played the young Flames' prospects in large roles as opposed to not. All the TOI sheets support the fact that the young guys got ample amount of time in every situation.

Sven never left the ice. Brodie played 29-30 minutes per night. By the end of the season, Reinhart was logging 23-25 minutes per night and in every situation including PK and PP. Ward has said Byron is the team's "spark plug"; when he's on the ice, the team's energy just has a different feel to it. Breen logged about 26 minutes per night. Nemisz (when he was healthy) was the first unit PK RW and was relied upon in puck possession situations.

If we want to pick out those prospects that didn't get opportunities, there are perfectly logical reasons as to why they didn't. Ferland wasn't fit to play last season and neither was Howse. Martin is just bad. Tough, but bad. Lamb was not a very good d-man, but he loved to hit. Most of the time Eddy was just a warm body out there and didn't do anything. Can't remember if I'm missing anyone.

Irving is still the strange case to me. From Ward's perspective, the team will play better if there's a goalie in net that they have confidence in (Danny Taylor), so he played the better goalie. On the other hand, Irving was a Flames prospect and should have been given every opportunity to succeed. But who's to say Danny Taylor wasn't a Flames prospect as well. He was only 25 at the time he started to emerge.

As for who is and isn't Ward's work. Brodie is 90% Ward's work. I wish I could find the article, but Brodie said that Playfair would scream and yell at him when he made a mistake and it was Ward that had to go over to Brodie and tell him what he needed to do not to make that mistake in the future.

Breen had a good rookie season under Playfair, took a step back under Ward in his sophomore season, then took a giant leap forward in his third season under Ward.

Backlund and Bouma, sure. They were Playfair's work.

The one thing that I'm seeing as a core argument against Ward is that he hasn't developed prospects. The reality is, you've got to have solid prospects to develop solid prospects. Any prospect that is considered a decent prospect made good developmental strides last season (Sven, Horak, Reinhart, Breen). Those who would be considered long-shots or depth prospects showed they are just that (Nemisz, Byron, Howse, Eddy, Lamb, Martin, Bancks).

[fastpuck]

As usual PMM, good analysis that cuts through the other stuff. Thanks

Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire

RE: Troy Ward.

I respect everyone's opinions about him, but I'll disagree with the majority of them in this thread so far. Erick Estrada and I have debated this in the General Heat Discussion Thread before.

More evidence speaks to the fact that he played the young Flames' prospects in large roles as opposed to not. All the TOI sheets support the fact that the young guys got ample amount of time in every situation.

Sven never left the ice. Brodie played 29-30 minutes per night. By the end of the season, Reinhart was logging 23-25 minutes per night and in every situation including PK and PP. Ward has said Byron is the team's "spark plug"; when he's on the ice, the team's energy just has a different feel to it. Breen logged about 26 minutes per night. Nemisz (when he was healthy) was the first unit PK RW and was relied upon in puck possession situations.

If we want to pick out those prospects that didn't get opportunities, there are perfectly logical reasons as to why they didn't. Ferland wasn't fit to play last season and neither was Howse. Martin is just bad. Tough, but bad. Lamb was not a very good d-man, but he loved to hit. Most of the time Eddy was just a warm body out there and didn't do anything. Can't remember if I'm missing anyone.

Irving is still the strange case to me. From Ward's perspective, the team will play better if there's a goalie in net that they have confidence in (Danny Taylor), so he played the better goalie. On the other hand, Irving was a Flames prospect and should have been given every opportunity to succeed. But who's to say Danny Taylor wasn't a Flames prospect as well. He was only 25 at the time he started to emerge.

As for who is and isn't Ward's work. Brodie is 90% Ward's work. I wish I could find the article, but Brodie said that Playfair would scream and yell at him when he made a mistake and it was Ward that had to go over to Brodie and tell him what he needed to do not to make that mistake in the future.

Breen had a good rookie season under Playfair, took a step back under Ward in his sophomore season, then took a giant leap forward in his third season under Ward.

Backlund and Bouma, sure. They were Playfair's work.

The one thing that I'm seeing as a core argument against Ward is that he hasn't developed prospects. The reality is, you've got to have solid prospects to develop solid prospects. Any prospect that is considered a decent prospect made good developmental strides last season (Sven, Horak, Reinhart, Breen). Those who would be considered long-shots or depth prospects showed they are just that (Nemisz, Byron, Howse, Eddy, Lamb, Martin, Bancks).

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire

RE: Troy Ward.

I respect everyone's opinions about him, but I'll disagree with the majority of them in this thread so far. Erick Estrada and I have debated this in the General Heat Discussion Thread before.

More evidence speaks to the fact that he played the young Flames' prospects in large roles as opposed to not. All the TOI sheets support the fact that the young guys got ample amount of time in every situation.

Sven never left the ice. Brodie played 29-30 minutes per night. By the end of the season, Reinhart was logging 23-25 minutes per night and in every situation including PK and PP. Ward has said Byron is the team's "spark plug"; when he's on the ice, the team's energy just has a different feel to it. Breen logged about 26 minutes per night. Nemisz (when he was healthy) was the first unit PK RW and was relied upon in puck possession situations.

If we want to pick out those prospects that didn't get opportunities, there are perfectly logical reasons as to why they didn't. Ferland wasn't fit to play last season and neither was Howse. Martin is just bad. Tough, but bad. Lamb was not a very good d-man, but he loved to hit. Most of the time Eddy was just a warm body out there and didn't do anything. Can't remember if I'm missing anyone.

Irving is still the strange case to me. From Ward's perspective, the team will play better if there's a goalie in net that they have confidence in (Danny Taylor), so he played the better goalie. On the other hand, Irving was a Flames prospect and should have been given every opportunity to succeed. But who's to say Danny Taylor wasn't a Flames prospect as well. He was only 25 at the time he started to emerge.

As for who is and isn't Ward's work. Brodie is 90% Ward's work. I wish I could find the article, but Brodie said that Playfair would scream and yell at him when he made a mistake and it was Ward that had to go over to Brodie and tell him what he needed to do not to make that mistake in the future.

Breen had a good rookie season under Playfair, took a step back under Ward in his sophomore season, then took a giant leap forward in his third season under Ward.

Backlund and Bouma, sure. They were Playfair's work.

The one thing that I'm seeing as a core argument against Ward is that he hasn't developed prospects. The reality is, you've got to have solid prospects to develop solid prospects. Any prospect that is considered a decent prospect made good developmental strides last season (Sven, Horak, Reinhart, Breen). Those who would be considered long-shots or depth prospects showed they are just that (Nemisz, Byron, Howse, Eddy, Lamb, Martin, Bancks).

Well Kerr on the radio this morning is backing me up saying that the Heat messed up last year and it's the reason Conroy is going there. He says Irving should have been playing and Horak should have been playing center, etc. He tried hard not to throw Ward under the bus but said the team acknowledged they messed up and Conroy is going there to change things. Pretty well backs up our suspicions all along.

Also the fact that they brought in Ftorek tells me that they have a contingency plan in case Ward isn't receptive to how they handle the prospects.

[byronkentgraham]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well Kerr on the radio this morning is backing me up saying that the Heat messed up last year and it's the reason Conroy is going there. He says Irving should have been playing and Horak should have been playing center, etc. He tried hard not to throw Ward under the bus but said the team acknowledged they messed up and Conroy is going there to change things. Pretty well backs up our suspicions all along.

Also the fact that they brought in Ftorek tells me that they have a contingency plan in case Ward isn't receptive to how they handle the prospects.

If they thought Irving had the potential to be anything more than a career AHLer they would have made him an offer and he wouldn't be in Europe. He had five seasons to prove he was more than a minor leaguer and didn't make the cut.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by byronkentgraham

If they thought Irving had the potential to be anything more than a career AHLer they would have made him an offer and he wouldn't be in Europe. He had five seasons to prove he was more than a minor leaguer and didn't make the cut.

A year ago Irving showed lots of potential. He'd taken the backup job away from the incumbent and he looked like he was the goalie in waiting. After his disastrous year in Abby, he didn't look the same. Some of the blame may be attributed to Ward.

He didn't look like he was going to recover his game, so they cut him loose but I don't think it was because he lacked skill, he'd lost his confidence and it became mutual for them to move on. Some new scenery may allow him to get back on track.

[timbit]

Heard a lot of reasons and excuses....IMO, mostly on Ward. More interested in winning than development.

[PIMking]

any backup under kipper failed because they sat and waited and waited and waited some more. then when they got their one game out of their 4 for the year they got stuck on the second night of a back to back games and a tired team with CP drilling them for sucking.

oh well, who is next?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by byronkentgraham

If they thought Irving had the potential to be anything more than a career AHLer they would have made him an offer and he wouldn't be in Europe. He had five seasons to prove he was more than a minor leaguer and didn't make the cut.

More than that. When Kipper went down, he had a chance to prove himself a legit goalie in the NHL. Irving fumbled it so badly that he's not only been forced to go to Europe, he's doing so on a tryout.

I wish him nothing but good fortune - and a long and happy professional career - but Leland Irving's failures in Calgary rest at his own feet.

[Flames_F.T.W]

I always felt bad for him with the pressure of being a first round pick

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

More than that. When Kipper went down, he had a chance to prove himself a legit goalie in the NHL. Irving fumbled it so badly that he's not only been forced to go to Europe, he's doing so on a tryout.

I wish him nothing but good fortune - and a long and happy professional career - but Leland Irving's failures in Calgary rest at his own feet.

That is a nice boiled down look at what happened... but considering how little ice time he saw in 2012-13 before this big opportunity one could definitely argue that he was not very well prepared by the organization. Irving only had 12 games on the season for the Heat leading up to his big call up.

Considering he had 39 in 2011-12 and 61 in 2010-11, I really do not think he was being set up for success last season. Apparently a big chunk of that blame is sitting at Ward's feet and I really hope that we get whatever problem there fixed before we screw up our next crop of exciting goalie propsects.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Wolven

That is a nice boiled down look at what happened... but considering how little ice time he saw in 2012-13 before this big opportunity one could definitely argue that he was not very well prepared by the organization. Irving only had 12 games on the season for the Heat leading up to his big call up.

Considering he had 39 in 2011-12 and 61 in 2010-11, I really do not think he was being set up for success last season. Apparently a big chunk of that blame is sitting at Ward's feet and I really hope that we get whatever problem there fixed before we screw up our next crop of exciting goalie propsects.

Should Ward take some of the blame? Sure.

Most of the blame goes on Irving though. If i remember correctly he was brutal in heat camp. In the first couple of weeks of the AHL season Ward came out and said that one of his goalies during practices was atrocious. He also said that goalie would be in the pressbox for the next game. Guess who was in the pressbox. Irving should have stepped into heat camp and taken that #1 job on day 1. He is to blame for that.

As for saying he only played 12 games when called up, that was probably more games played than other back-ups in the league. Most goalies played "shinny" during the lockout and Irving got to play and practice on a pro team. He should have been ready.