High blood pressure, but can't find the reason

[BigBrodieFan]

If you were at the dentist there is every reason you have high BP. BP changes several times a day. A rush of adrenaline will change your BP. 90 for diastolic is not really that high- absolutely not high if you are under stress.

The best thing to do to lower BP is to exercise. You might also try a medical grade infrared sauna, like Sunlighten which is very popular in the Calgary area. If you find a facility to try an infrared sauna, chances are a medical grade sauna will lower you BP in as little as one session. Either that or just relax or do some sort of cardio workout.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

At my recent medical, my blood pressure was 119/69 and my doctor was suggesting that was on the low end of what he likes to see? I thought that would be fairly ideal. Never have had a problem with dizziness or fainting.

You're fine, super healthy. It's just that most people's blood pressure trends to the higher side, so lower/normal BPs are skewed to seem like you have low blood pressure. You're pretty much ok unless you go below 100/50...that's dangerous territory.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

For those who want a non-pharmaceutical intervention for idiopathic high blood pressure, check out this article on upper cervical chiropractic.

http://www.webmd.com/hypertension-hi...blood-pressure

"This procedure has the effect of not one, but two blood-pressure medications given in combination," study leader George Bakris, MD, tells WebMD. "And it seems to be adverse-event free. We saw no side effects and no problems," adds Bakris, director of the University of Chicago hypertension center.

It's worth a try before you're on medication for the rest of your life.

[Bill Bumface]

Lasers and Chiropractors.

This thread just got legit.

[troutman]

The body of man has in itself blood, phlegm, yellow bile, and black bile; these make up the nature of the body, and through these he feels pain or enjoys health. Now, he enjoys the most perfect health when these elements are duly proportioned to one another in respect to compounding, power and bulk, and when they are perfectly mingled. Pain is felt when one of these elements is in defect or excess, or is isolated in the body without being compounded with all the others

[calumniate]

Remove your private parts immediately. The longer you let it go the more crippling the symptoms will become.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

For those who want a non-pharmaceutical intervention for idiopathic high blood pressure, check out this article on upper cervical chiropractic.

http://www.webmd.com/hypertension-hi...blood-pressure



It's worth a try before you're on medication for the rest of your life.

Oh god no - do not let a chiro touch your neck. Pretty much every 6-12 months the ER gets a vertebral artery dissection / stroke case in someone who just saw their chiro for "cervical manipulation".

It's not worth a try unless you want to risk being Terri Schiavo for the rest of your life.

[sun]

Originally Posted by missdpuck

I gave blood the other day and my BP as a whopping 155/95. I went to the dr. as I've had spikes like this before. I would rather not go on meds. So, the dr advised me to check my diet, of course. Even though I'm a vegetarian, I can't say my diet is really healthy.

Is vegetarianism considered healthy?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

Oh god no - do not let a chiro touch your neck. Pretty much every 6-12 months the ER gets a vertebral artery dissection / stroke case in someone who just saw their chiro for "cervical manipulation".

It's not worth a try unless you want to risk being Terri Schiavo for the rest of your life.

I'd like to see the stats on that. There's nothing in any of the research that suggest that chiropractic adjustments cause VAD. Most cases are showing up with a dissection in progress (symptoms being very stiff and painful neck with a terrible headache), they got adjusted, and then got sent to the ER. The stats actually indicate you are more likely to get a VAD by going to a medical doctor than a chiropractor. Nobody can prove that chiropractors cause VAD so we have to estimate the likelihood of it during the informed consent. Somewhere around 1 in 6 million I believe.

Tell me again how chiropractors cause these?

And the Terry Schiavo comment is borderline embarrassing. I hope you aren't an actual medical professional because that's the most unprofessional comment I've ever heard.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

Lasers and Chiropractors.

This thread just got legit.

Are published medical literature and WebMD not legit? I'm confused by your comment.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

I'd like to see the stats on that. There's nothing in any of the research that suggest that chiropractic adjustments cause VAD. Most cases are showing up with a dissection in progress (symptoms being very stiff and painful neck with a terrible headache), they got adjusted, and then got sent to the ER. The stats actually indicate you are more likely to get a VAD by going to a medical doctor than a chiropractor. Nobody can prove that chiropractors cause VAD so we have to estimate the likelihood of it during the informed consent. Somewhere around 1 in 6 million I believe.

http://www.ottawaskeptics.org/2008/0...-manipulation/

Journal of Neurology. “Cervical artery dissection–clinical features, risk factors, therapy and outcome in 126 patients.” 2003 Oct;250(10):1179-84.
The highly variable clinical course of cervical artery dissections still poses a major challenge to the treating physician. This study was conducted (1) to describe the differences in clinical and angiographic presentation of patients with carotid and vertebral artery dissections (CAD, VAD), (2) to define the circumstances that are related to bilateral arterial dissections, and (3) to determine factors that predict a poor outcome. Retrospectively and by standardised interview, we studied 126 patients with cervical artery dissections. Preceding traumata, vascular risk factors, presenting local and ischemic symptoms, and patient-outcome were evaluated. Patients with CAD presented more often with a partial Horner’s syndrome and had a higher prevalence of fibromuscular dysplasia than patients with VAD. Patients with VAD complained more often of neck pain, more frequently reported a preceding chiropractic manipulation and had a higher incidence of bilateral dissections than patients with CAD. Bilateral VAD was significantly related to a preceding chiropractic manipulation. Multivariate analysis showed that the variables stroke and arterial occlusion were the only independent factors associated with a poor outcome. This study emphasises the potential dangers of chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine. Probably owing to the systematic use of forceful neck-rotation to both sides, this treatment was significantly associated with bilateral VAD. Patients with dissection-related cervical artery occlusion had a significantly increased risk of suffering a disabling stroke.

Stroke. “Chiropractic Manipulation and Stroke: A Population-Based Case-Control Study.” 2001;32(10):1054-60.

The rarity of VBAs makes this association difficult to study despite high volumes of chiropractic treatment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2564146/

A number of cases of VAD associated with chiropractic cervical manipulation have been reported, but rarely in the emergency medicine literature. We present a case of this rare occurrence, and discuss the diagnostic pitfalls.

Vertebral artery dissections after
chiropractic neck manipulation
in Germany over three years

http://www.chiro.org/Professional_Re...reuter_u06.pdf

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...ain-an-update/

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by troutman

http://www.ottawaskeptics.org/2008/0...-manipulation/

Journal of Neurology. “Cervical artery dissection–clinical features, risk factors, therapy and outcome in 126 patients.” 2003 Oct;250(10):1179-84.
The highly variable clinical course of cervical artery dissections still poses a major challenge to the treating physician. This study was conducted (1) to describe the differences in clinical and angiographic presentation of patients with carotid and vertebral artery dissections (CAD, VAD), (2) to define the circumstances that are related to bilateral arterial dissections, and (3) to determine factors that predict a poor outcome. Retrospectively and by standardised interview, we studied 126 patients with cervical artery dissections. Preceding traumata, vascular risk factors, presenting local and ischemic symptoms, and patient-outcome were evaluated. Patients with CAD presented more often with a partial Horner’s syndrome and had a higher prevalence of fibromuscular dysplasia than patients with VAD. Patients with VAD complained more often of neck pain, more frequently reported a preceding chiropractic manipulation and had a higher incidence of bilateral dissections than patients with CAD. Bilateral VAD was significantly related to a preceding chiropractic manipulation. Multivariate analysis showed that the variables stroke and arterial occlusion were the only independent factors associated with a poor outcome. This study emphasises the potential dangers of chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine. Probably owing to the systematic use of forceful neck-rotation to both sides, this treatment was significantly associated with bilateral VAD. Patients with dissection-related cervical artery occlusion had a significantly increased risk of suffering a disabling stroke.

Yes, I'm aware of that article, but it's 10 years old and there are more recent articles that refute it. I'll get back to you on that.

BTW, the style of adjustment with excessive rotation is no longer taught and most established chiropractors haven't used it in years.

The adjustment in the article I posted has zero rotation to it, and there isn't even a thrust. It's incredibly safe even if you are worried about VAD. The researchers even said there were zero (or next to zero) adverse reactions to it.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

BTW, on the 2nd article you posted Troutman, it would be considered evidence, but of poor quality when doing a review of the literature. It's something that definitely requires further investigation, and definitely not anywhere near definitive proof.

This study has several limitations. We did not include a control group and did also not design the study to eval- uate a cause-effect relationship. Therefore, the results preclude new evidence for a cause- and effect relation- ship. The design is also retrospective.

These factors make this the basis for a preliminary study with a small clinical group.

Sorry to derail the thread, but I get tired of defending myself. Chiropractors are heavily scrutinized yet do little if anything to injure a patient. Medical errors account for the 6th leading cause of death in the U.S., yet they get a free pass for everything they do.

[troutman]

"Medical Errors" is a straw man. Chiro must be evaluated on its own merits.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

I'd like to see the stats on that. There's nothing in any of the research that suggest that chiropractic adjustments cause VAD. Most cases are showing up with a dissection in progress (symptoms being very stiff and painful neck with a terrible headache), they got adjusted, and then got sent to the ER. The stats actually indicate you are more likely to get a VAD by going to a medical doctor than a chiropractor. Nobody can prove that chiropractors cause VAD so we have to estimate the likelihood of it during the informed consent. Somewhere around 1 in 6 million I believe.

Tell me again how chiropractors cause these?

And the Terry Schiavo comment is borderline embarrassing. I hope you aren't an actual medical professional because that's the most unprofessional comment I've ever heard.

Looks like Trout beat me to the punch, and funny you dismiss it as being outdated/invalid while you cite an article from the same decade with it's own problems (only 25 patients in a treatment arm? how is that study actually double blinded?). Beyond what is published, I think it is fair to state that chiro related dissections continue to go under reported in the literature. No doubt there is a bunch of terrible chiro "research" out there diluting the stats to the negligible odds you cite, but based on my own experience and that of other colleagues it would certainly be higher that that.

Your assertion of a pre-existing dissection is a typical chiro deflection. Even if that is true in some cases, this is an admission of negligence as you have effectively delayed critical treatment by hours or days on a progressive condition with considerable mortality and morbidity. What could a chiro possibly offer in the way of appropriate treatment for a dissection and/or stroke? In fact its highly likely you made it worse by propagating the dissection or knocking off clots that will then travel and occlude the smaller arteries within brain.

Love the "MD's cause more VA damage than chiros" statement by the way. Classic straw man argument and of course more deflection. Do you actually think that the patient groups are at all comparable? If you want to talk angiogram/surgical risk, sure there will be a higher incidence of dissections, but this is within a patient pool inherently at higher risk for complication, who also stands to receive a much higher benefit from the procedure such as saving their life or neurologic function. These risks would never be justified on the grounds of awful evidence, pseudoscience and "mal-alignment", which is the overwhelming point here.

Lastly, there is no shame in referencing Terri Schiavo to inform the average Joe what a brainstem injury would look like.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

BTW, on the 2nd article you posted Troutman, it would be considered evidence, but of poor quality when doing a review of the literature. It's something that definitely requires further investigation, and definitely not anywhere near definitive proof.



These factors make this the basis for a preliminary study with a small clinical group.

Sorry to derail the thread, but I get tired of defending myself. Chiropractors are heavily scrutinized yet do little if anything to injure a patient. Medical errors account for the 6th leading cause of death in the U.S., yet they get a free pass for everything they do.

I like the critical appraisal of literature going on here. If must be infuriating to review what passes as evidence in chiro journals.

I also think draining a patient's wallet for snake oil would count as an injury...

[missdpuck]

Originally Posted by sun

Is vegetarianism considered healthy?

Not if the main ingredients of your diet are salsa made with jalapeno and ghost peppers, nacho chips, and sour cream.

But let's not derail this thread with a discussion of the pros and cons of vegetarianism as that debate has appeared elsewhere on this forum.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

I like the critical appraisal of literature going on here. If must be infuriating to review what passes as evidence in chiro journals.

I also think draining a patient's wallet for snake oil would count as an injury...

ok, done talking to you. Probably the most disrespectful person I've ever talked to on this subject.

[sun]

Originally Posted by missdpuck

Not if the main ingredients of your diet are salsa made with jalapeno and ghost peppers, nacho chips, and sour cream.

But let's not derail this thread with a discussion of the pros and cons of vegetarianism as that debate has appeared elsewhere on this forum.

Sorry, wasn't trying to rustle any jimmies. Was kinda just curious. Never looked into it myself, just assumed eliminating meat would be unhealthy.

[missdpuck]

No problem, sun. The discussion just tends to get ridiculously out of hand for some reason, so it's not a good idea to start it again.