Should players, sports organizations, or the whole COC boycott the Sochi Olympics?

[BumbleBee]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Put your money where your mouth is. How many of you would quit your job to send a futile message to the Russian government that you know fully well they are not likely to soften their stance? Really how many here would quit their job for this principal? All you people that busted your hump the last four years to get to where you are at the company you work at. All the sacrifices to your family. Just throw all that away to protest this. This is what you are expecting of the athletes.

There is a lot of selfish in this thread but it's not the athletes or Canadians. It's the hypocrites that expect people who have invested a large chunk of their lives in their sports to throw that away for a futile cause to appease a forum warrier using his keyboard to emphasize his nobleness.

Do you really think that the message is futile cause? The message here is the fact that the oppression of homosexuality is unacceptable and we will not condone Russia to institutionalize the discrimination of homosexuals. The existence of these ambiguous laws criminalizing "propaganda of non-traditional sexual orientations" reinforces the mindset that being homosexual is wrong. This devaluation of homosexuals is wrong. Human rights take precedence here, and it is not a futile matter that on a global scale, the IOC is implicitly supporting Putin's bigotry. The respect, value, and protection of every single human being trumps everything else.

It is absurd to say that the Olympics are just about the sport. Nothing in this world exists exclusively - the Olympics are a symbol of fairness and equal opportunity to compete. Do you really think that homosexuals will feel like they have the equal opportunity to compete in the Sochi games when they have to worry about being arrested just for kissing their partner on the street? Every single human being on this planet should have the freedom to feel "right" in their own skin and express themselves without fear of being arrested.

Just because their government passed the law does not make it right. Yes, the majority of Russians support the law - but that also does not make it right. The law is meant to "protect children from vulgar images of homosexuality" but the law is so ambiguous that just talking about homosexuality or simple expressions of affection could be cause for arrest and fine. Look at that video of Putin inciting violence against diseased homosexuals. This is bigger than just the Olympic games - this is about the equality and respect of every single human being.

This is not the "west" imposing radical views on Russia. This is humanity standing up for the equality of all human beings and taking a stance on the fact that we will not allow this blatant disrespect of humanity.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by polak

Voting doesn't cost innocent people who are completely unassociated to the problem their life long dreams.

Voting also has a far greater chance of actually inciting change.

I also strongly disagree that a Canadian boycott would move anything forward. Like others have mentioned, it'll just increase moral in Russia by upping their medal count.

I actually think Canadians wearing something in support of LGBT would be FAR FAR FAR more effective than not showing up. I would be surprised if Canada boycotting would be world news for longer than the day it's announced. Especially in countries where LGBT are oppressed. You know, the ones you're trying to reach?

Utterly stupid idea.

What's utterly stupid is your continued characterization of something that is very complicated and has legitimate arguments on both sides as a simple thing.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by valo403

What's utterly stupid is your continued characterization of something that is very complicated and has legitimate arguments on both sides as a simple thing.

Keep in mind, Valo43, he's really young. I remember in high school my opinions used to be very black and white, simple and strong.

[HHW]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

This has got to be the flimsiest reason ever to not boycott the Olympics.

The "life long dreams" of a few hundred athletes, the vast majority of whom we've never heard of and compete in obscure sports we don't pay attention to, is hardly a reason to not take a stand based on our principles.

Our "Canadian-ness" is not trumped by the hopes and dreams and sweat and tears and bla bla bla of these people. If Canadians feel we should boycott the Olympics, we should do it .

That is rather callous. Just because you do not know much about these athletes and their discipline does not make the impact on their lives insignificant and easily discounted

[valo403]

Originally Posted by HHW

That is rather callous. Just because you do not know much about these athletes and their discipline does not make the impact on their lives insignificant and easily discounted

I know plenty about their discipline and effort, I trained alongside olympic athletes for a year or so and was blown away by the work they put it in. I don't easily discount their sacrifices at all, but at the end of the day I agree with Rogue, the dreams of competing in a sporting event do not hold a candle to standing up for the principles we hold as a country. I'm not certain that a boycott is the best way to present those principles, attendance could lead to stronger forms of protest, so the positions don't necessarily have to be at odds, but I don't for a second buy the argument that the athletic pursuits of a couple hundred athletes should take precedent.

Competing in the Olympics isn't an inherent right, being treated with respect and dignity regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation or anything else should be.

[Itse]

I think the idea that boycotting the Sochi games would have no effect is ridiculously naive. Would boycotting Sochi change the Russian anti-gay policies right now? Propably not. The long-term effects are however a very complicated matter.

The world is not a place where actions are isolated; everything affects everything.

LGBT rights have become one of the main human rights battles of the first part of this century. The LGBT issue, like most human rights issues, are ultimately a question of public opinion. Public opinion is historically often moved by example, and respected organizations and public figures taking a strong stand on issues can have a huge impact. Many people will notice if there are boycotts over these issues in the olympics, and many of those people will be affected by it to some extent.

This goes both ways too: respected individuals such as athletes showing up as if nothing is going on and is also sending a message; that LGBT rights are not worth making a fuss over.

Also, public opinions are swayed by politicians, who are affected by money. Boycotts are bad for the sponsors. They take eyes of the product and they put stains on the image they're trying to build.

You can't win a human rights battle overnight, but doing the right things many times over will eventually move things the right way and make persecuting LGBT minorities a less worthwhile pursuit for power-hungry politicians looking for an easy target.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

How do you represent "You Can Play" at the same time that you participate in Russian Olympics?

I don't think it's possible.

Why don't you ask the guy who founded You Can Play, who also happens to oppose a boycott?

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/eh-...164224189.html

"Every gay athlete that I have spoken too has said universally that they want to go. There is not one gay athlete that I have spoken too who is competing in these games who is in favour of a boycott or in favour of staying home, gay athletes want to show up, they want to compete they want to show what they can do," Burke said in a television interview with the CBC Friday. "The Russian Laws are based on the ideas that gay people are somehow weaker or wrong, or lesser. If you a win an Olympic gold medal and you are gay doesn't that show exactly the opposite of that."

[GrrlGoalie33]

I absolutely agree that something should be done by Canada to show our lack of respect and support for all countries that violate OUR basic human rights. I just don't agree that the Olympics is the place to do that.

I'm not convinced that it will have the desired impact (or really any impact at all), and I think there are better places to do it - like in trade and financial transactions between Canada and those countries.

Clearly Russia doesn't care what the world's super-power thinks about their policies, re: Snowden. That should indicate that 200 athletes from Canada not showing up to their Olympics in protest isn't going to mean a thing to them.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Itse

I think the idea that boycotting the Sochi games would have no effect is ridiculously naive. Would boycotting Sochi change the Russian anti-gay policies right now? Propably not. The long-term effects are however a very complicated matter.

The world is not a place where actions are isolated; everything affects everything.

LGBT rights have become one of the main human rights battles of the first part of this century. Many people will notice if there are boycotts over these issues in the olympics, and many of those people will be affected by it to some extent.

The LGBT issue, like most human rights issues, are ultimately a question of public opinion. Public opinion is historically often moved by example, and respected organizations and public figures taking a strong stand on issues can have a huge impact.

Also, public opinions are swayed by politicians, who are affected by money. Boycotts are bad for the sponsors. They take eyes of the product and they put stains on the image they're trying to build.

You can't win a human rights battle overnight, but doing the right things many times over will eventually move things the right way and make persecuting LGBT minorities a less worthwhile pursuit for power-hungry politicians looking for an easy target.

Only if nobody is watching...and Canada boycotting the Olympics would have a negligible effect on viewership, thereby lowering ad prices on the NEXT Olympic games...and that's at best. And thats only if NO one in canada watches a minute of action. The IOC already has their money for these games, so it wouldnt hurt them until negotiating rights for the South Korea games.

You want to make a statement to Russians about their policies? You hit them where it hurts...dont purchase any of their products. Boycott THEM not the games. Otherwise you do nothing more than hurt the athletes slated to go there who just want to compete rather than get into some dispute over something they have zero control of. Again if individual athletes wish to take a stand, I say all the power to them and support them regardless. But for those who wish to complete their lifelong dreams, it would be nothing short of selfish to disallow them to go and fulfill all they have trained so long and hard for.

Also...out of curiousity, what if anything is being said in Finland in regard to this debate?

[You Need a Thneed]

Here is a simplification:

Is the law bad? Yes
Should we do something about it? We should try.
Is a boycott likely to be effective? No, probably not. It would likely be ignored, certainly by the people you would attempt to influence.
Would a boycott throw away what might be the only opportunity for some athletes to compete in the Olympics at the top of their game? Yes
Are other methods of protest available? Yes.
Would these other methods of protest be more effective? Boycotts often harden defenses, so likely yes. Hard to measure exactly how much.
Would other methods of protest still allow athletes to compete? Yes.

Frankly, I think the best form of protest is to go, and act as you would have otherwise. The moment the Russians jail an athlete (if it happens), is the day the Russian government starts receiving enormous pressure from other governments and the IOC to change - pressure that even Russia couldn't resist.

I brought it up briefly before, but I think another good passive aggressive protest would be to send a men's hockey team composed of entirely gay athletes. For one, it would certainly bring more attention in the international media than simply not going at all. The pro hockey players haven't trained their whole life for an opportunity at the Olympics, so you really aren't harming them. And frankly, you might be able to find enough players to form a team, that could practice together from now until the Olympics, that might actually be good enough to compete with some of the teams in the tournament.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Why don't you ask the guy who founded You Can Play, who also happens to oppose a boycott?

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/eh-...164224189.html

Well that pretty much settles that.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Here is a simplification:

Is the law bad? Yes

We know the law is tremendously bad from an outside of Russia perspective. From doing a bit of reading it sounds like it is a fairly popular law inside of Russia. Our government has spoken out about the anti-gay laws in Russia and in African nations. Outside of a Boycott there isn't much more you can do except for things like trade sanctions, the old bringing the ambassador home for consultation, outright shutting down the embassy, there isn't much there. We can also and our government has done it is look at how gay persecution is treated under refugee acts. In otherwords if you come from those countries and you are gay you can claim governmental persecution.

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Should we do something about it? We should try.

Sure, but I guess what we have to ask is would we want to do a boycott hitting on multiple reasons. The anti-gay laws, The Russian actions in Syria etc? I personally think that while its great that the focus is hard on the anti-gay platform, why aren't people talking about the direct hand that the Russian's are taking in the support of the Syrian government that's slaughtering their people while they effectively block any type of UN action?

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Is a boycott likely to be effective? No, probably not. It would likely be ignored, certainly by the people you would attempt to influence.

Why would the Russian's care, first and foremost they've got all of the money now, they were paid for the T.V. rights, anyone who's going as a tourist has already booked tickets and hotel rooms and its doubtful that there are going to be refunds.

Also as I mentioned before the law is not unpopular in Russia, and Russian's are highly focuses around internal politics as a precursor to their foreign affairs under this government.

Plus and lets say that there is a boycott, American and Russian and Canadian and Russian relations have cooled significantly over the last few years. The Russian's have moved away from the beggar in the street Perestroika and Glasnost Russian's at the end of the cold war, where they wanted to rejoin the international community and be friends and have access to money, to the more Communist style of government that was a surly bear super power. While I would argue that a Iron Curtain has not gone up, there is a curtain there.

All a boycott would do would be to lead to diplomatic retaliation by the Russian's where they oppose everything for the simple reason that it pisses people off.

And this might make me sound cold and incorrect, but a boycott or massive slap in the face might burn political goodwill that is needed in a later date when there is a real crisis and we potentially need Russian help, or negotiation.

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Would a boycott throw away what might be the only opportunity for some athletes to compete in the Olympics at the top of their game? Yes

Agreed, but its up to the individual athlete in this sense on whether they would want to no show or not.

I would think there are athletes out there that aren't focused about the anti-gay movements and they would be resentful at the unfairness of a blanket boycott.

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Are other methods of protest available? Yes.
Would these other methods of protest be more effective? Boycotts often harden defenses, so likely yes. Hard to measure exactly how much.
Would other methods of protest still allow athletes to compete? Yes.

As I mentioned above, there are limited options that you can take. It used to be that America and Canada provided Russia with most of its wheat, I don't believe that's the case anymore, other then that their oil is a mixture of home drilled or from the Middle East so we have very little leverage there. We could kill off some of the technology agreements they have, but that would hurt Canadian and American countries.

I think that the best solution if a boycott doesn't come down is the refugee thing. Open up the refugee process to gay people fleeing an unfair law.

The only other thing I could see would be to boot the Russian's out of the G8 meetings, but that would have dire diplomatic consequences.

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Frankly, I think the best form of protest is to go, and act as you would have otherwise. The moment the Russians jail an athlete (if it happens), is the day the Russian government starts receiving enormous pressure from other governments and the IOC to change - pressure that even Russia couldn't resist.

I really don't believe there are those pressure points. The IOC won't pull the games at this point, it just won't happen, though the lawsuit would be interesting. It would also put a pretty hard blow to the International Olympic movement as I doubt you would see the Russian's attending the games ever again.

Russia is not going to change their internal laws for the international community, the day and age where we had that kind of leverage and the American's had that leverage are long gone. The Russian's basically told Obama to f off and mind their own knitting on the Syrian thing. On one of the last meetings Putin basically "Mat Damoned" our Prime Minster. (BTW good for our Prime Minster for fighting back on a obvious snub by Putin)

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I brought it up briefly before, but I think another good passive aggressive protest would be to send a men's hockey team composed of entirely gay athletes. For one, it would certainly bring more attention in the international media than simply not going at all. The pro hockey players haven't trained their whole life for an opportunity at the Olympics, so you really aren't harming them. And frankly, you might be able to find enough players to form a team, that could practice together from now until the Olympics, that might actually be good enough to compete with some of the teams in the tournament.

That's a choice, but I think that Hockey Canada and the NHL who both depend on the Olympics for dollars and fundraising would raise a stink.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

We know the law is tremendously bad from an outside of Russia perspective. From doing a bit of reading it sounds like it is a fairly popular law inside of Russia. Our government has spoken out about the anti-gay laws in Russia and in African nations. Outside of a Boycott there isn't much more you can do except for things like trade sanctions, the old bringing the ambassador home for consultation, outright shutting down the embassy, there isn't much there. We can also and our government has done it is look at how gay persecution is treated under refugee acts. In otherwords if you come from those countries and you are gay you can claim governmental persecution.



Sure, but I guess what we have to ask is would we want to do a boycott hitting on multiple reasons. The anti-gay laws, The Russian actions in Syria etc? I personally think that while its great that the focus is hard on the anti-gay platform, why aren't people talking about the direct hand that the Russian's are taking in the support of the Syrian government that's slaughtering their people while they effectively block any type of UN action?



Why would the Russian's care, first and foremost they've got all of the money now, they were paid for the T.V. rights, anyone who's going as a tourist has already booked tickets and hotel rooms and its doubtful that there are going to be refunds.

Also as I mentioned before the law is not unpopular in Russia, and Russian's are highly focuses around internal politics as a precursor to their foreign affairs under this government.

Plus and lets say that there is a boycott, American and Russian and Canadian and Russian relations have cooled significantly over the last few years. The Russian's have moved away from the beggar in the street Perestroika and Glasnost Russian's at the end of the cold war, where they wanted to rejoin the international community and be friends and have access to money, to the more Communist style of government that was a surly bear super power. While I would argue that a Iron Curtain has not gone up, there is a curtain there.

All a boycott would do would be to lead to diplomatic retaliation by the Russian's where they oppose everything for the simple reason that it pisses people off.

And this might make me sound cold and incorrect, but a boycott or massive slap in the face might burn political goodwill that is needed in a later date when there is a real crisis and we potentially need Russian help, or negotiation.






Agreed, but its up to the individual athlete in this sense on whether they would want to no show or not.

I would think there are athletes out there that aren't focused about the anti-gay movements and they would be resentful at the unfairness of a blanket boycott.



As I mentioned above, there are limited options that you can take. It used to be that America and Canada provided Russia with most of its wheat, I don't believe that's the case anymore, other then that their oil is a mixture of home drilled or from the Middle East so we have very little leverage there. We could kill off some of the technology agreements they have, but that would hurt Canadian and American countries.

I think that the best solution if a boycott doesn't come down is the refugee thing. Open up the refugee process to gay people fleeing an unfair law.

The only other thing I could see would be to boot the Russian's out of the G8 meetings, but that would have dire diplomatic consequences.





I really don't believe there are those pressure points. The IOC won't pull the games at this point, it just won't happen, though the lawsuit would be interesting. It would also put a pretty hard blow to the International Olympic movement as I doubt you would see the Russian's attending the games ever again.

Russia is not going to change their internal laws for the international community, the day and age where we had that kind of leverage and the American's had that leverage are long gone. The Russian's basically told Obama to f off and mind their own knitting on the Syrian thing. On one of the last meetings Putin basically "Mat Damoned" our Prime Minster. (BTW good for our Prime Minster for fighting back on a obvious snub by Putin)





That's a choice, but I think that Hockey Canada and the NHL who both depend on the Olympics for dollars and fundraising would raise a stink.

Unrelated, but what does the NHL get out of the Olympics? I'd be happy if the NHL didn't send players at all. It should be amateur athletes. It's almost as bad as the NBA sending players to the Olympics, but at least other countries have good hockey players.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Unrelated, but what does the NHL get out of the Olympics? I'd be happy if the NHL didn't send players at all. It should be amateur athletes. It's almost as bad as the NBA sending players to the Olympics, but at least other countries have good hockey players.

Unprecedented exposure and advertising they couldn't ever afford otherwise.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Unprecedented exposure and advertising they couldn't ever afford otherwise.

To who though? In this case in particular, with games to be aired from around 2 am EST to around 10am EST, who exactly? Die hards who love hockey already? Yup, but you don't need those people. Europeans? Meh, they have the KHL so if they return to watch any hockey it'll be that so they don't have to get up at 3am to watch the NHL. It works perfectly when its in North America because it can help drive US viewers to watch, and even then its only if the Americans are doing well. The second they're out, most of the American audience doesn't care.

Basketball on the other hand has large international growth potential so it makes sense for them (especially when its not during the season). Hockey? I just don't think it provides a huge boost to anything. Its obviously great for fans of the game, but outside the US (and for the US, only because they made the final), I don't think the 2010 Olympics did much to increase the NHL's exposure. So basically unless you plan on having the US in every final trying to drive up interest there, it won't have a huge impact on increasing exposure. Advertising? Nothing at all. Most people know the NHL exists already. They choose not to pay attention.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Unrelated, but what does the NHL get out of the Olympics? I'd be happy if the NHL didn't send players at all. It should be amateur athletes. It's almost as bad as the NBA sending players to the Olympics, but at least other countries have good hockey players.

So you want track and field, skiing, volleyball etc. gone as well?

I can see not loving the NHL being there for a number of reasons, but the era of amateurism in the Olympics is long gone

[JohnnyB]

How about just the heterosexual athletes boycott the games? Make Sochi 2014 the Queer Olympics. Russia's olympics would go down in history with an asterix beside it that every medalist was extra fabulous. That, would be an awesome olympic games.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

To who though? In this case in particular, with games to be aired from around 2 am EST to around 10am EST, who exactly? Die hards who love hockey already? Yup, but you don't need those people. Europeans? Meh, they have the KHL so if they return to watch any hockey it'll be that so they don't have to get up at 3am to watch the NHL. It works perfectly when its in North America because it can help drive US viewers to watch, and even then its only if the Americans are doing well. The second they're out, most of the American audience doesn't care.

Basketball on the other hand has large international growth potential so it makes sense for them (especially when its not during the season). Hockey? I just don't think it provides a huge boost to anything. Its obviously great for fans of the game, but outside the US (and for the US, only because they made the final), I don't think the 2010 Olympics did much to increase the NHL's exposure. So basically unless you plan on having the US in every final trying to drive up interest there, it won't have a huge impact on increasing exposure. Advertising? Nothing at all. Most people know the NHL exists already. They choose not to pay attention.

I remember the day after the Vancouver Canada/US gold medal game all there was a flood of american callers calling into the Jim Rome show saying they don't follow hockey but that was one of the most tense and amazing games they have seen in any sport, riveted to their chairs, etc. I'm not saying it converts millions of fans but it does gain attention and notoriety for the league much like the outdoor classic games.

[Bill Bumface]

I hope for an event that someone gay wins gold, someone else gay wins silver, and during the medal presentation they just start making out hardcore on the podium, daring authorities to arrest them.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

To who though? In this case in particular, with games to be aired from around 2 am EST to around 10am EST, who exactly? Die hards who love hockey already? Yup, but you don't need those people. Europeans? Meh, they have the KHL so if they return to watch any hockey it'll be that so they don't have to get up at 3am to watch the NHL. .

Nah.

NHL is a much better selling point for sports channels than KHL, based how both are advertised. And you only have to get up at 3AM if you're an idiot like me and want to watch West coast team. Eastern teams regurarly end their games at doable hours (11PM - 1AM), and there's a lot of games to choose from if you're not dedicated to just one team.

Plus the Euro players get visibility, which buys them sponsorship deals in their own countries.