Should players, sports organizations, or the whole COC boycott the Sochi Olympics?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Yup. And the Olympics had no place in China either.

Yeah, that's what I hate about that argument that's been brought up many times in this thread.

'Well, we didn't boycott this, and if you boycott the Olympics you'll have to also boycott this and that".

No, no we don't. It would be perfectly acceptable to boycott this ****y country for their BS treatment of the LGBT community, while not also boycotting everything unjust in the entire world. And quite frankly anyone who isn't outraged by their treatment of gays, despite the fact that yes, there are worse things in the world, is pretty ridiculous, imo.

But at the end of the day, I would support a boycott if the athletes want it.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Yes. Leaving politics to politicians always works out for the best. It makes sure things get done efficiently and effectively.

Personally, I think human rights trumps sports a thousand times over. And I don't give a crap whether it is here or in another country. We should be standing up for human rights AROUND THE WORLD.

So we seem to agree about whether people are voting the right way but COMPLETELY differ on the reason.

Do you think fruitless gestures trump Canadians athletes life long dedication?

Fact of the matter is the vast majority of the world isn't on board with LGBT rights and Canada ruining the dreams of their athletes isn't going to change that. Not by a long shot.

It's actually kind of selfish.

"Throw away all you've worked for in your life so that we can tell Russia they suck! Who cares that it's your and hundreds of other peoples life long passion, and it won't accomplish ANYTHING."

What don't you get. Russians aren't even remotely close to accepting homosexuality in anyway. This is dumb. Don't punish our athletes for the IOC's mistake. F*** me this argument is so frustrating.

[jayswin]

Just to clarify, polak, even though that response wasn't directed at me. I personally have been making comments that have been in favour of a boycott, but I'm in favour of an athlete led boycott, not a boycott imposed on the athletes. As in, every athlete was on board and said "yes, as an athlete I would like to make a stand by not participating".

I completely agree that it wouldn't be fair for anyone but 100% of the athletes themselves to make the decision to back out. I completely disagree that a boycott of the Olympics by Canada would be "fruitless" or "very minor" like you and MattyC have been insinuating.

I think you guys would be very shocked at the world wide attention that would receive, and I personally would be beyond words and filled with enormous pride to wake up one day and see that announcement. I think our country would be looked up to and lauded by people the world over.

I think when you guys say most of the world isn't on board with LGBT rights, you're confusing "people" with "countries". And heck, maybe you're right. But there's 7 billion people on earth, so even if there's more people against gay rights than for them, there's still likely billions for them, and this would be huge world news and would solidify our country as an LBGT rights leader.

Now will this likely happen? I highly doubt it, but to suggest it would be minor if it did is insane. Add to that, a lot of people in this thread keep saying this won't do anything because Russia doesn't care. Well, is the goal to change Russia or to show that we don't agree with Russia's treatment of homosexuals? There's a slight, yet important difference.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by polak

Do you think fruitless gestures trump Canadians athletes life long dedication?

Fact of the matter is the vast majority of the world isn't on board with LGBT rights and Canada ruining the dreams of their athletes isn't going to change that. Not by a long shot.

It's actually kind of selfish.

"Throw away all you've worked for in your life so that we can tell Russia they suck! Who cares that it's your and hundreds of other peoples life long passion, and it won't accomplish ANYTHING."

What don't you get. Russians aren't even remotely close to accepting homosexuality in anyway. This is dumb. Don't punish our athletes for the IOC's mistake. F*** me this argument is so frustrating.

This is why I just think that the men's hockey team should boycott. The reigning champs in the biggest event and they're all millionaires already. And while yes, I assume a gold is important to them too, it's a little easier to miss out on it when you can go back to making ridiculous dollars.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Whoa whoa whoa. I knew we had MRCbiocgy, but CP has lesbians?!

Nice...

Originally Posted by J Pold's sig

He knew!

[Itse]

Originally Posted by nik-

This is why I just think that the men's hockey team should boycott. The reigning champs in the biggest event and they're all millionaires already. And while yes, I assume a gold is important to them too, it's a little easier to miss out on it when you can go back to making ridiculous dollars.

Hockey Canada also has the unique advantage that they could propably easily make a deal with the NHL to organize another World Cup, which is very close in prestige to the Olympic Gold.

Basicly they could have their cake and eat it.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Being gay, in private, is not illegal in Russia. Being gay in public is now in effect illegal as the complete vagueness of the law doesn't define propaganda at all. So if a man and his partner hold hands in public, they are subject to punishment under this law because the obviously draconian Russian government (see: P*ssy Riot) will punish as they see fit. Some Dutch tourists were arrested for talking to some people about gay rights.

Russia, in effect, is getting closer to a country like Saudi Arabia rather than countries in the western world.

World cultures are not that simple as in Saudi Arabia it's common for men to hold hands.

* Touching, long handshakes, grasped elbows, even walking hand in hand by two males is common place in the Arab world. A considerable number of Arabs touch more between the same sex, to show liking–not sex. They hold hands, hug each other, kiss if close friends.

http://www.30-days.net/islam/culture/customs/

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/01/we.../01basics.html

So what's considered gay behaviour in one country isn't in another.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Frankster

I don't want to make my custom user title up either, it's kinda like a nickname imo. Has to be given - however dangerous that is.

As many have found out, it's often MORE dangerous if you suggest or hint at one. The mods taking the opportunity to take the suggestion and flip it in an unflattering way.

Anyway, as for the thread topic... The longer this thing goes on, the more I hate it. Where I didn't care too much before (and it's not because I am insensitive to the issue. As anyone who has followed my posting knows I've been a very outspoken advocate of LGBT rights. More of a resignation to the complexity of this particular situation) I find myself wanting more everyday for there to be some sort of momement against this policy be it a boycott or a move of venue or whatever.

As flawed as I know the idea is in the real world, the Olympics are supposed to be about the betterment of mankind. Not just through athletics and the body. But society and our values. It's about coming together in peace. How can we do that if certain people are excluded, or told not to be themselves?

While we want to be tolerant of other cultures and beliefs, human rights does precede this in my opinion. Especially in our now overpopulated world. We need to get along.

I also worry we have not learned the mistakes of the past. The funny thing is the IOC SAYS it doesn't allow political or religious movements during the games, but that's often exactly what the host country does. 1936 being the most obvious of a long list of examples.

I have believed for a while that to be admitted to some of the larger bodies of world congress (Olympics, UN, etc.) perhaps a nation needs to show commitment to responsibility to human rights. It's a great idea, but I fear it would fail anyway. You'd just have several UN type groups of various geopolitical and/philsophical flavors that ended up digging in against each other, like the cold war.

I really don't know what the solution would be. As horrible as it is sometimes, maybe keeping everyone together for the conversation is the best thing we can do. It's like a dysfunctional family. It's not lost if everyone is sitting at the table.

Maybe. Like I said, I dunno.

[MRCboicgy]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

So what's considered gay behaviour in one country isn't in another.

I keep telling guys they're good as long as balls don't touch

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Yeah, that's what I hate about that argument that's been brought up many times in this thread.

'Well, we didn't boycott this, and if you boycott the Olympics you'll have to also boycott this and that".

No, no we don't. It would be perfectly acceptable to boycott this ****y country for their BS treatment of the LGBT community, while not also boycotting everything unjust in the entire world. And quite frankly anyone who isn't outraged by their treatment of gays, despite the fact that yes, there are worse things in the world, is pretty ridiculous, imo.

But at the end of the day, I would support a boycott if the athletes want it.

Well it's the truth. Or you are saying Gay rights are more important than the rights of Chinese citizens? It's been proven by past Olympic boycotts that they don't work. The 1980 Moscow boycott was a waste as Soviets didn't withdraw from Afghanistan. There are also theories that if countries did boycott that the Russian gay community would be used as a scapegoat and that life would be even worse for them and I certainly wouldn't want to be part of anything that directs misguided hate towards them.

You yourself said you are in favour of a athlete led boycott and since there's zero chance that's going to happen all this talk is moot as the IOC and the athletes have been clear that it's business as usual. This whole thing right now is nothing more than media driven controversy to sell newspapers and drive up internet traffic. The Olympics will carry on as they should.

[Itse]

Since the 1936 olympics is commonly used as a reference point, here's a quick peek into history:

http://americablog.com/2013/08/hitle...-2014-gay.html

The New York Times reported on November 6, 1935 that German Chancellor Adolf Hitler promised International Olympic Committee (IOC) chairman Count Henry Baillet-Latour that he would take down anti-Jewish signs during the two week period of the Berlin Olympics of 1936. (The article is behind the NYT pay-firewall, soat I’ll only quote a bit of it.)
The NYT added that IOC chair Baillet-Latour was “well satisfied” with Hitler’s assurances to temporarily pause his campaign of hate against Germany’s Jewish minority.

So, even the Nazis could tune down their campaign of hatred during the olympics, unlike the Russians, and...

[IOC chair Baillet-Latour] attacked energetically groups in the United States that have opposed American participation in the Berlin games. He asserted that the agitation against participation was exclusively a political campaign, citing as evidence the fact that none of the national Olympic committees now opposed having the games in Berlin.
He declared that the non-participation movement was being well financed and was “based on lies,” representing nothing more than a trump card in the hand of certain interested groups that have nothing to do with sport.

...the IOC has a very long tradition of BS when it comes to human rights.

I guess it would be naive the think they'd actually stand behind their own code of ethics (pdf).

Let me quote a bit. (These are very selected quotes, I admit.)

Recommendations – The structure of the Olympic Movement
“The legitimacy and autonomy of the Olympic Movement depend on upholding the highest standards of ethical behaviour and good governance.”

ioC Code of ethics

Preamble

The International Olympic Committee and each of its members, the cities wishing to organise the Olympic Games, the Organising Committees of the Olympic Games and the National Olympic Committees (hereinafter “the Olympic parties”) restate their commitment to the Olympic Charter and in particular its Fundamental Principles. The Olympic parties affirm their loyalty to the Olympic ideal inspired by Pierre de Coubertin. Consequently, at all times the Olympic parties and, in the framework of the Olympic Games, the participants, undertake to respect and ensure respect of the present Code.

2. There shall be no discrimination between the participants on the basis of race, gender, ethnic origin, religion, philosophical or political opinion, marital status or other grounds.


Rule 59 of the Olympic Chartermeasures and sanctions

The conduct of the cities shall comply strictly with the provisions of the Olympic Charter, the IOC Code of Ethics and its Implementing Provisions.

These Rules apply to all Olympic parties* and in particular to cities wishing to organise the Olympic Games and their National Olympic Committees (NOCs), as well as to any person or organisation acting on their behalf or supporting them. Each NOC is responsible for ensuring compliance with these Rules at all times.

And just to point out what is the regulated punishment here:

In the case of any violation of the Olympic Charter, the World Anti-Doping Code, or any other regulation, as the case may be, the measures or sanctions which may be taken by the Session, the IOC Executive Board or the disciplinary commission referred to under 59.2.4 below are:

1.6 with regard to a host city, an OCOG and an NOC:
withdrawal of the right to organise the Olympic Games (Session)

Obviously there are supposed be warnings before this measure, but still.

It's pretty clear that the current crackdown on LGBT minorities is a breach of IOC rules. I mean they should in the very least give them a slap on the hand, like they did with China. And China did do all sorts of things to play nice, and by some reports the country is better for it. By some reports it's worse.

The important difference was that IOC was not in strong support of Chinese human rights violations.

Also, I think it's clear that trying to ban rainbow pins is a clear violation of IOC's own code of ethics; descriminating people for having what they themselves have labeled a political opinion.

EDIT:
Of course mostly their "code of ethics" is filled with measures to protect the olympic brand.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well it's the truth. Or you are saying Gay rights are more important than the rights of Chinese citizens? It's been proven by past Olympic boycotts that they don't work. The 1980 Moscow boycott was a waste as Soviets didn't withdraw from Afghanistan. There are also theories that if countries did boycott that the Russian gay community would be used as a scapegoat and that life would be even worse for them and I certainly wouldn't want to be part of anything that directs misguided hate towards them.

You yourself said you are in favour of a athlete led boycott and since there's zero chance that's going to happen all this talk is moot as the IOC and the athletes have been clear that it's business as usual. This whole thing right now is nothing more than media driven controversy to sell newspapers and drive up internet traffic. The Olympics will carry on as they should.

What a ridiculous argument. By your logic nothing can ever be protested or argued against unless it's done on the very first instance. One kick at the can and then it's off the table.

Want to end slavery? Well did you protest it centuries ago? No? Can't do it now. Hell, we can't even complain about China anymore by that logic, we had our chance. Incredibly ridiculous logic.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Itse

Hockey Canada also has the unique advantage that they could propably easily make a deal with the NHL to organize another World Cup, which is very close in prestige to the Olympic Gold.

Basicly they could have their cake and eat it.

Would Russia participate though?

See that's where boycotting loses its real ability to mean anything. You do it to them....they will in turn do it to you. Not that it should be a huge deterrent in making a statement, but its just the reality of things.

Boycotting Sochi wont make a lick of difference to the Russians, period. In fact it will only allow their medal haul to be greater and that is something that simply cannot be allowed as that is where they get a great deal of satisfaction from.

If an athlete wants to say "screw you" to the Russians as a protest individually, then they should be allowed to and without consequence. Beyond that though, governments should stay clear from making political statements through athletic performance.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Phaneufenstein

Did anyone actually read what the new law is?

It criminalizes homosexual/bi/transgender propaganda among under-18 individuals.
This new bill is an amendment to an existing law called "Protection of children from information that is harmful to their health or development."

Russia is a deeply religious country, I'm not surprised to see this at all.
While not exactly a liberal view on things, I don't think it's as bad as people are painting it here to be.

It's punishable by fines of up to $150.00 for individual offenses, and up to $3500 for individuals using mass media/social media.

Being gay is not illegal in Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia

Wait is it nature or nuture? I didn't know you could catch The Gay.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Would Russia participate though?

See that's where boycotting loses its real ability to mean anything. You do it to them....they will in turn do it to you. Not that it should be a huge deterrent in making a statement, but its just the reality of things.

Boycotting Sochi wont make a lick of difference to the Russians, period. In fact it will only allow their medal haul to be greater and that is something that simply cannot be allowed as that is where they get a great deal of satisfaction from.

If an athlete wants to say "screw you" to the Russians as a protest individually, then they should be allowed to and without consequence. Beyond that though, governments should stay clear from making political statements through athletic performance.

If the Olympics wasn't already a highly political event I'd likely lean further in this direction. The fact is that the olympics are highly politicized and have been for decades. I'm not sure that a full boycott is the answer, but it's good to see that this issue is continuing to remain on the front page. The pathetic actions of the Russian government should be publicized, and it's gotten even better now that the IOC has shown it's true colors.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by transplant99

governments should stay clear from making political statements through athletic performance.

thought no government anywhere ever.

To be fair I wish they did.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MRCboicgy

I keep telling guys they're good as long as balls don't touch

Its the no eye contact rule.

If there's no eye contact it could be two bro's just helpin each other out

[The Yen Man]

If an athlete wanted to boycott, I'd totally support him/her. But it's up to the individual athlete to do so, and I don't think it's fair for the government or us internet posters to pressure them to do so if they don't want to. If they do go, I'd cheer them on and support them completely.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Its the no eye contact rule.

If there's no eye contact it could be two bro's just helpin each other out

This post leads me to believe you were in the navy.....

[Thor]

Anna Chicherova in the IIHF qualifiers for the olympics taking place in Moscow, she won gold in the high jump and made some nasty anti gay comments the other day, also blasting a Swedish athlete for painting her nails rainbow color in support of gay rights.

Still can't find a news story on her comments, just caught the BBC panel talking about her and the comments during her medal ceremony. When I find them I will post, they were pretty harsh.

Here's a story on athletes showing support with small symbolic ways.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...ys/484631.html