Camrose woman accusing Alberta sheriff of excessive force

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Igottago

This might have been part of what happened...but, Police officers should be held to a higher standard. The woman might have been the mad cow from hell but the cop needs to keep his calm and deal with her with the least amount of force necessary. Cops don't get a free pass for letting their anger boil over -- we can't let them. After all, their job is to deal with annoying, obnoxious, and often dangerous people. But they have to maintain their standard of upholding the law within a reasonable standard. That's what makes the good ones so good, and the bad ones unsuitable for the uniform.

I can't comment on this specific case but I think some people are too easy to let police get away with excessive force just because they are dealing with a less than cooperative person.

I think it is hard as a regular person to really understand what excessive force means, and how much force is required to accomplish things like arrests, when the person is cooperative vs uncooperative.

Something that is totally over the line when the person is doing what is requested of them becomes acceptable if they are combative or violent. It's that part of this story that we are missing, which makes it hard to say one way or another how much in the wrong this sheriff was.

If someone is actively resisting being arrested, it will easily take 3-5 officers to even have a hope of subduing someone without what some of us would call excessive force. If there is only one officer, then what happens?

[FanIn80]

Maybe she was tired and meant to pull out her cell phone and point it at the cop to record him, but ended up grabbing her AK-47 out from underneath the back seat by mistake.

That kind of stuff probably happens all the time though, so the cop still should have just politely and calmly explained that it was a fully-automatic assault rifle she was trying to find the Record button on, and not, in fact, her mobile phone with a built-in 8MP 1080p HD video camera and a Carl Zeiss lens.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Any professional can do those things including teachers, nurses, etc.

My wife and I both work and have worked in/with the operating rooms in various hospitals and clinics and in our experience there are good guys/gals and a-holes, just like any other profession.

Yes, but pharmacist were also on the list and we are ethically vastly superior to any other profession in every way. And more modest. And funny. And attractive. Don't forget attractive

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by fotze

Except for the filling of 99% of your shelf space with highly profitable placebos......and giving air miles for drug orders.

Those are not our decisions. All our corporate executives are unethical petroleum engineers...

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by valo403

That's true now, but the point of the post was that people holding professional licenses were seen as reaching a higher threshold as demonstrated by the requirement that one act as a guarantor for a passport application prior to a few years ago. Whether that makes them 'better' in any sense of the word is certainly debatable.

Hmm, I always thought the reason why they used to make professionals as guarantors is because of the risk of losing your designation if you lie, hence less chance of someone lying when signing off on a passport application.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I think it is hard as a regular person to really understand what excessive force means, and how much force is required to accomplish things like arrests, when the person is cooperative vs uncooperative.

Case in point, at the Stamps home opener, I saw some drunken moron pick a fight at the end of the game that ultimately required about 7 cops/security guards to get him under control and in cuffs. Even so, I happened to be exiting the stadium when he decided to try resisting again. End result: he ate a face full of cement and had a taser set point blank at his back if he continued on. And from what parts of these incidents I could see, there was nothing remotely excessive about the force used. The guy seemed completely out of control.

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Hmm, I always thought the reason why they used to make professionals as guarantors is because of the risk of losing your designation if you lie, hence less chance of someone lying when signing off on a passport application.

Yes, that is more succinct. It is because of the The Obligation of an Engineer and the Hippocratic Oath, et al, that these professions are held in higher esteem.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Well the condition of her face does, at absolute minimum, partially support her claims...

Actually it doesn't. I have put my face through a lot and the next day at work not a single person noticed any bruising. Some of the other guys I trained with looked beat up all the time, even with minimal contact.

This is really evident in the UFC, some fighters (Silva) barely get a scratch, and others (GSP, Fedor) look really bad. The results on a face barely tell any story.

Either way, it is pretty routine to pin someone's face to the ground if they are resisting while getting cuffed. That alone can cause many abrasions on a face, in particular someone who is a bruiser.

There is a complaint and now an investigation, that will tell a better story than her face.

[Rathji]

I am saying that her face does seem to indicate that it hit something hard enough to cause bruising. That fact supports, at minimum, part of the story she told.

It doesn't mean the police officer did anything wrong, or that everything she said was true though.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Case in point, at the Stamps home opener, I saw some drunken moron pick a fight at the end of the game that ultimately required about 7 cops/security guards to get him under control and in cuffs. Even so, I happened to be exiting the stadium when he decided to try resisting again. End result: he ate a face full of cement and had a taser set point blank at his back if he continued on. And from what parts of these incidents I could see, there was nothing remotely excessive about the force used. The guy seemed completely out of control.

There's a difference between a drunk Riders fan and a dentist sitting in her car supposedly uncooperative. Now we don't know if she actually was uncooperative other than not rolling her window fast enough but lets say she was uncooperative. The officer feels threatened so pulls her out of her car? If he can't handle an arrest or feels threatened then I'd argue he obviously wasn't as he pulled her out of the car not knowing who she was or what she could be carrying.

The point is we might not know what happened exactly but the picture is pretty clear. He lost his temper after feeling disobeyed.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

There's a difference between a drunk Riders fan and a dentist sitting in her car supposedly uncooperative. Now we don't know if she actually was uncooperative other than not rolling her window fast enough but lets say she was uncooperative. The officer feels threatened so pulls her out of her car? If he can't handle an arrest or feels threatened then I'd argue he obviously wasn't as he pulled her out of the car not knowing who she was or what she could be carrying.

The point is we might not know what happened exactly but the picture is pretty clear. He lost his temper after feeling disobeyed.

I am confused, you say we don't know what happened and then the next sentence you describe exactly what happened as though it actually did.

I don't think you understand how this 'knowing' thing works.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

There's a difference between a drunk Riders fan and a dentist sitting in her car supposedly uncooperative. Now we don't know if she actually was uncooperative other than not rolling her window fast enough but lets say she was uncooperative. The officer feels threatened so pulls her out of her car? If he can't handle an arrest or feels threatened then I'd argue he obviously wasn't as he pulled her out of the car not knowing who she was or what she could be carrying.

The point is we might not know what happened exactly but the picture is pretty clear. He lost his temper after feeling disobeyed.

Does this act ever get boring? Do you ever question your CP Persona? Do you ever wonder why you have to be the resistance in almost every single thread? I find it fascinating that you're able to put this sort of dedication into it. I mean the hours and sheer number of posts are staggering. And that's just this account right? This is number 2 for you correct? Over 4000 posts dude - almost an average of 11 posts per day!!

[Vulcan]

What I have noticed over the years is that at one time some cops could get away with almost anything. Who were you going to report it to and what evidence do you have other than your word against the cop.

Things have changed largely because of video evidence although now we'll probably get more bogus accusations as people try to play the victim as cops are losing their status as upholders of justice because of the many publicized instances of brutality. As others have said it will be interesting to see any video evidence but for now the condition of the woman makes it look bad for the sheriff.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I am confused, you say we don't know what happened and then the next sentence you describe exactly what happened as though it actually did.

I don't think you understand how this 'knowing' thing works.

It's only confusing if you never read the "exactly" in the sentence. We don't know whether she was being uncooperative or even resisting but the fact he pulled her out of her car and her facial injuries indicates he lost his temper. This is why this is a news story.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I am saying that her face does seem to indicate that it hit something hard enough to cause bruising. That fact supports, at minimum, part of the story she told.

It doesn't mean the police officer did anything wrong, or that everything she said was true though.

Are you saying that the bruises support her claim there was abuse? In my opinion, her story is either all true or all false, it cannot fall in the middle somewhere. The visual size of injury barely supports anything, unless you assume they resulted from the officer.

Her face certainly appears to have been forced into the ground, the question is was that warranted? The size of the bruise does not say anything, mean anything and in my opinion should not impact the investigation. Was physical contact justified between the officer and this lady? That is the question.

Like I said, 'hard enough to cause bruising' is very much an individual thing that is different from person to person. Proper procedure can cause the exact same bruising.

I don't think there is a dispute she was cuffed, but at this stage even injuries are up in the air and will have to be proven.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

Does this act ever get boring? Do you ever question your CP Persona? Do you ever wonder why you have to be the resistance in almost every single thread? I find it fascinating that you're able to put this sort of dedication into it. I mean the hours and sheer number of posts are staggering. And that's just this account right? This is number 2 for you correct? Over 4000 posts dude - almost an average of 11 posts per day!!

Yeah I'm the only one questioning the cop in this thread

You seem pretty obsessed though, it's not really your business how much I post. 11 posts per day and not a single infraction in 7 months so I'm fine with my "persona". You on the other hand are holding a grudge that's what I find fascinating. All you have to do is look at your last 20 posts and your last 20 posts thanked. You see nage Waza your buddy and I get into an argument and you stick your nose into the argument to only give petty insults. That's fascinating to me. Why do you hold a grudge when you have a life and don't post on CP often which obviously makes you a better person.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Yeah I'm the only one questioning the cop in this thread

Yeah I'm the only one who has ever called you out as a troll

My last 20 thanked posts? You mean all the ones about R/C cars? What are you talking about?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

It's only confusing if you never read the "exactly" in the sentence. We don't know whether she was being uncooperative or even resisting but the fact he pulled her out of her car and her facial injuries indicates he lost his temper. This is why this is a news story.

We don't know that he lost his temper. Injuries can happen when a person is struggling or resisting arrest. So far we only have her side of the story and i'm hesitant to jump to any conclusions until all the facts are in.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

You see nage Waza your buddy and I get into an argument and you stick your nose into the argument to only give petty insults.

I think an argument requires some type of back and forth debate, which I don't think we have ever had. I provide an argument, you ignore it. Most of your 'arguments' follow that path.

I think that qualifies you as a troll.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

Yeah I'm the only one who has ever called you out as a troll

My last 20 thanked posts? You mean all the ones about R/C cars? What are you talking about?

Not taking sides in your dispute here but I would hardly call puckluck a troll. He has a right to an opinion as much as anyone else here. This place would be pretty boring if we all shared the same views.