Peace in Israel/Palestine

[Bleeding Red]

[QUOTE=pseudoreality;4358362I don't understand why this is such a big deal. Israel is a state and is not going anywhere. Denying that fact is not going to help you. You can deny their claim on the lands they took in 67, but the original state is legitimate. [QUOTE]

You and I understand that, but the belief that "We (Palestinians/Arabs) do not recognize it and it does not even have the right to exist" is prevalent throughout the Islamic world. They do not consider "the original state is legitimate".

Official recognition ends the issue of Israel's right to exist.

Same goes for the reverse. If Palestine makes any effort to get internationally recognised, Israel goes crazy and works through its US allies to defund any organization that recognises their bid for statehood.

In this case, the same does not go for the reverse. Why? Because all parties (Israel, Fatah, USA, Canada, UN, Europe) agreed that Palestinian Statehood would be the result of peace negotiations with Israel with the Oslo Accords (as well as other UN resolutions).
By trying to be internationally recognized or independently declaring statehood outside the negotiating framework means that they are abandoning the land-for-peace ideal and a peaceful end to the conflict.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by _Q_

In the same way Israel never shows Palestine on any maps? http://www.goisrael.de/Tourism_Ger/T...pOfIsrael1.pdf

You won't find Palestine in most any atlas - technically it does not yet exist.
Most standard maps (like those used in my kids' public high school) show the WB & Gaza as separate "disputed" areas.

The road map you link to does have a couple interesting things:
- It does show Gaza as completely separate.
- It does list cities that are considered Palestinian - Ramallah, Jenin, Jericho, Nabalus. (How do I know? - look at the colour scheme - the pinkish blotches are Palestine Area A) - You will not find Tel-Aviv, Ber-sheva, Haifa, or Eilat in a Palestinian textbook.

That site also links to Google maps, which shows the disputed territories.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

You won't find Palestine in most any atlas - technically it does not yet exist.
Most standard maps (like those used in my kids' public high school) show the WB & Gaza as separate "disputed" areas.

The road map you link to does have a couple interesting things:
- It does show Gaza as completely separate.
- It does list cities that are considered Palestinian - Ramallah, Jenin, Jericho, Nabalus. (How do I know? - look at the colour scheme - the pinkish blotches are Palestine Area A) - You will not find Tel-Aviv, Ber-sheva, Haifa, or Eilat in a Palestinian textbook.

That site also links to Google maps, which shows the disputed territories.

Sure, those cities are there, because they exist. But, calling the area "Judea and Samaria" is misleading. Most of the world knows that area as The West Bank.

Also, what the hell are Shekhem, Hevron, Yeriho and Azza Strip? Most of the world knows those places as Nablus, Hebron (Al Khalil in Arabic), Jericho(Ariha in Arabic) and Gaza. It's downright insulting to give Arab towns Hebrew names, especially ones that are not in Israel proper.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Sure, those cities are there, because they exist. But, calling the area "Judea and Samaria" is misleading. Most of the world knows that area as The West Bank.

Also, what the hell are Shekhem, Hevron, Yeriho and Azza Strip? Most of the world knows those places as Nablus, Hebron (Al Khalil in Arabic), Jericho(Ariha in Arabic) and Gaza. It's downright insulting to give Arab towns Hebrew names, especially ones that are not in Israel proper.

It would be insulting if they left off the standard names completely. Would the Palestinian map include Shekhem (the biblical name for the area) on a map under Nabulus? Notice the Map refers to Akko /acre; Tzfat/Safed. Clearly those places with biblical reference get the standard name in brackets. The only town which does not get the bracket is Bethlehem. No idea why, but I do know the the highway sign for that town refers to it in Hebrew, Arabic, and English (went there in 1992).

I do not see any hebrewization of Ramallah, Jenin, Tulkarm, Qalqilya.
The map also shows Qazir Harish, Um El Fahim, and others, all in Israel Proper, with only their Arabic names.

[pseudoreality]

Originally Posted by blankall

How do you explain the attacks coming from the West Bank? The Gaza blockade saved the lives of many Israelis. The notion that Gaza would have warmed to Israel had they had more access to weapons is ridiculous. The Gaza Blockade did not come into force until after Hamas had taken power. Hamas has declared open war on Israel.

The Palestinians will continue to be poor until they address a few problems within their own society. Firslty when every woman has between 6 and 8 children, everyone is going to be poor. An economy cannot support that kind of growth. Sure, it's great for a demographic war with Israel, but it cripples your economy. Secondly, they have to allow human rights. When your government does things like throw people with dissenting ideas off bulidings or stop women from going to school, it's not going to do wonders for your economy either.

I agree with the second paragraph. Although I don't know if they are poor because they have too many kids, or they have too many kids because they are poor. Humans seem to do the opposite of other species on the plant in that regard. Its only when conditions are good that fertility goes down.

I disagree with your first paragraph though. The blockade of Gaza went way beyond keeping weapons out and didn't even do a good job there. Israel used the blockade to punish the people for electing Hamas. The idea was if they could starve and make suffer they would reject Hamas. Everything from basic building materials to snack food was blocked. Potato chips are not used to make rockets. Treating people like that is not the way for peace.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by pseudoreality

I agree with the second paragraph. Although I don't know if they are poor because they have too many kids, or they have too many kids because they are poor. Humans seem to do the opposite of other species on the plant in that regard. Its only when conditions are good that fertility goes down.

I disagree with your first paragraph though. The blockade of Gaza went way beyond keeping weapons out and didn't even do a good job there. Israel used the blockade to punish the people for electing Hamas. The idea was if they could starve and make suffer they would reject Hamas. Everything from basic building materials to snack food was blocked. Potato chips are not used to make rockets. Treating people like that is not the way for peace.

They are encouraged to have as many kids as possible. They're in a demographic war with Israel. Both sides are trying to pump up their population numbers as much as possible in the hopes that they can either swarm the other side demographically. At the very least both sides are trying to populate as many areas as possible, so that when it come times to draw the final borders they can point to major population centres.

Also, I don't know if you meant it metaphorically, but absolutely no one was starving in the Gaza Strip. The Gaza Strip has one of the highest incidences of obesity in the world:

http://politicalarena.org/2012/11/25...t-among-women/

What you have to remember about the Gaza Strip blockade is that when Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip, it was both an experiment and an olive branch. The land became free of all Jews for the first time in recorded history. Immediately the citizens of Gaza elected Hamas, who's stated goal is the destruction of Israel. Hamas then began a massive rocket attack against Israel.

And no, Israel did not ban building materials. They allowed building materials in as long as they were for a specific project. Concrete and steel were most certainly being used in rocket production.

You are right that certain items were banned in order to put presure on Hamas. I'd also like to point out that Israel is not the only country that has a border with Gaza. Gaza also borders Egypt, and Israel has absolutely no control over that border. If Hamas was just looking for peace, why did Egypt put all storts of restrictions on Hamas too? The truth of the matter is that Hamas is very dangerous. Israel was not allowed to have a full out military conflict with Hamas, so the only way to get at them becomes economically and politically.

I think you might have a point if Hamas had been elected after the blockade. However, Hamas was elected before the blockade and after the withdrawal. Hamas is a strong arm organization that thrives on making their opposition look weak. In order to deal with Hamas, you have to strong arm them back. It's the only way.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

Also, I don't know if you meant it metaphorically, but absolutely no one was starving in the Gaza Strip. The Gaza Strip has one of the highest incidences of obesity in the world:

http://politicalarena.org/2012/11/25...t-among-women/

As I said, it's tough to be an expert in all things.

This notion is a trope that doesn't die despite plenty of scientific publications refuting it*. Food insecure and low income people are at greater risk of obesity. In fact, the relationship is highest among women. Please see following links for some examples:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20431413
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11385061
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17079542

The literature on this spans contributing causes such as lack of access to healthy foods, limited resources, relative expense of healthier foods. So yeah, now that you're aware of some of the scientific studies, how do you think the blockade relates to obesity among women in the Gaza Strip?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

As I said, it's tough to be an expert in all things.

This notion is a trope that doesn't die despite plenty of scientific publications refuting it*. Food insecure and low income people are at greater risk of obesity. In fact, the relationship is highest among women. Please see following links for some examples:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20431413
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11385061
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17079542

The literature on this spans contributing causes such as lack of access to healthy foods, limited resources, relative expense of healthier foods. So yeah, now that you're aware of some of the scientific studies, how do you think the blockade relates to obesity among women in the Gaza Strip?

Obesity was high both before and after the blockade. Also, you aren't reading your own studies correctly.

The studies have to do with poor people in America. I really don't see how a study showing that poor people in America eat too much McDonalds, has anything to do with the proposition that people in Gaza are "starving".

I don't dispute that the people of Gaza have been through a lot. However, access to food is not a major problem of theirs, nor has it ever been. As I stated previously, they have one of the fastest growing populations in the world and also one of the most obese.

Even if everything you're saying is true, which it isn't, you still have dealt with the issue of Israel not controlling all of Gaza's borders.

[Nage Waza]

A better question for Flames Fan PH.D. is where has he been since the Palestinian ally Hezbollah has been killing Syrian civilians? Too busy posting against Israel? How many deaths does it take to see that the model within Israel is the path to peace? Treat your people civilly, provide rights and freedoms regardless of race/religion/ethnicity and teach children to respect each other. There won't be peace in the region until they view Israel as a beacon, a place to look on how they need to treat their citizens.

Conflict in the region is due to indoctrination, dictatorships and a lack of minority rights, by most of Israel's neighbors. Although the West bank is certainly better off than those in Gaza, Israel will not have a peace partner until those three items are resolved by the Palestinians. Not just Palestinians, much of the Arab world need to make this step.

The fact a thread is dedicated to accusing Israel of being the problem due to building houses is completely out to lunch. Israel will continue to build houses and develop their country and will not stop until there is a Palestinian break through, a time when they realize violence is not the answer, and the answer is peace, prosperity and respect of all others. You might not have noticed, but Israel and Jews have had a pretty rough ride - they clearly do not care anymore and will do what is best for themselves to be safe. They know perfectly well the bulk of the world would be more than happy to see them go.

And if Israel did go? Egypt marches east, Syria marches west and takes over Lebanon, Jordan and Syria fight it out for Palestine. Total war. The only thing working in the Palestinians favor right now is the fact there is a western democracy in the region. Otherwise, there are no Palestinians.

As we have seen the last few years/decades/forever, dictatorships don't work. The day this is figured out is the day that there might be peace in the region.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

A better question for Flames Fan PH.D. is where has he been since the Palestinian ally Hezbollah has been killing Syrian civilians? Too busy posting against Israel? How many deaths does it take to see that the model within Israel is the path to peace? Treat your people civilly, provide rights and freedoms regardless of race/religion/ethnicity and teach children to respect each other. There won't be peace in the region until they view Israel as a beacon, a place to look on how they need to treat their citizens.

Conflict in the region is due to indoctrination, dictatorships and a lack of minority rights, by most of Israel's neighbors. Although the West bank is certainly better off than those in Gaza, Israel will not have a peace partner until those three items are resolved by the Palestinians. Not just Palestinians, much of the Arab world need to make this step.

The fact a thread is dedicated to accusing Israel of being the problem due to building houses is completely out to lunch. Israel will continue to build houses and develop their country and will not stop until there is a Palestinian break through, a time when they realize violence is not the answer, and the answer is peace, prosperity and respect of all others. You might not have noticed, but Israel and Jews have had a pretty rough ride - they clearly do not care anymore and will do what is best for themselves to be safe. They know perfectly well the bulk of the world would be more than happy to see them go.

And if Israel did go? Egypt marches east, Syria marches west and takes over Lebanon, Jordan and Syria fight it out for Palestine. Total war. The only thing working in the Palestinians favor right now is the fact there is a western democracy in the region. Otherwise, there are no Palestinians.

As we have seen the last few years/decades/forever, dictatorships don't work. The day this is figured out is the day that there might be peace in the region.

Jesus Christ, what a load a crap.

Hezbollah is allied with the Palestinian people? That's news to me. What the hell does Syria and Lebanon have to do with any of this?

So now Israel is protecting Palestinian sovereignty from their evil Arab brothers by building houses on Palestinian land? Right. How exactly does that work?

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

Obesity was high both before and after the blockade. Also, you aren't reading your own studies correctly.

The studies have to do with poor people in America. I really don't see how a study showing that poor people in America eat too much McDonalds, has anything to do with the proposition that people in Gaza are "starving".

I don't dispute that the people of Gaza have been through a lot. However, access to food is not a major problem of theirs, nor has it ever been. As I stated previously, they have one of the fastest growing populations in the world and also one of the most obese.

Even if everything you're saying is true, which it isn't, you still have dealt with the issue of Israel not controlling all of Gaza's borders.

My interest here is to have a meaningful discussion. If we're all going to make up facts and associations based on the outcome we want, then let me know and I'll refrain from commenting.

And I think it is rich that you're suggesting that I need to read the studies that I posted. First of all, 10 minutes passed between my post and your rebuttal. Am I to believe that you read my post, the three papers I linked in their entirety, and drew up your rebuttal all within 600 seconds? Especially considering that one of the papers is behind a paywall...

As to your off-hand generalization about Americans eating McDonald's, I think it's just a clear way of trying to dismiss the topic through some vague authority posture. The contributing factors to obesity that I outlined in a prior post are applicable regardless of having a McDonald's or Wendy's on the street corner of your neighbourhood.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

A better question for Flames Fan PH.D. is where has he been since the Palestinian ally Hezbollah has been killing Syrian civilians? Too busy posting against Israel?

I guess in your world pointing out that:

1) Ottomans and Turks should not be conflated, and
2) Food insecurity is related to obesity,

are anti-Israel posts. Nice cudgel you wield.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I guess in your world pointing out that:

1) Ottomans and Turks should not be conflated, and
2) Food insecurity is related to obesity,

are anti-Israel posts. Nice cudgel you wield.

Firstly, both points are wrong.

The Ottomans and the Turks are the same people.

Secondly, food insecurity causes obesity in North America, where food insecurity is related to poverty. There is a large difference between this kind of "food insecurity" (IE McDonalds and Walmart are places where poor and instable families tend to shop) and actual starvation (IE I don't have the strength to brush the flies from my face, so I'm going to lay here and die), which is what Israel has falsely been accussed of inflicting on the Palestinians.

Once again, I don't dipuste that the Palesntnians of Gaza have been through a lot, but they are not starving.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

My interest here is to have a meaningful discussion. If we're all going to make up facts and associations based on the outcome we want, then let me know and I'll refrain from commenting.

And I think it is rich that you're suggesting that I need to read the studies that I posted. First of all, 10 minutes passed between my post and your rebuttal. Am I to believe that you read my post, the three papers I linked in their entirety, and drew up your rebuttal all within 600 seconds? Especially considering that one of the papers is behind a paywall...

As to your off-hand generalization about Americans eating McDonald's, I think it's just a clear way of trying to dismiss the topic through some vague authority posture. The contributing factors to obesity that I outlined in a prior post are applicable regardless of having a McDonald's or Wendy's on the street corner of your neighbourhood.

Please state which specific facts I've made up.

Also, no I am not going to spend 2 hours analyzing papers that don't relate to this discussion in any way. Once again, you posting about excessive fast food consumption in the USA does not realted to this discussion. And if there is a section that discusses the Palestinians please point it out. I wouldn't expect you to read through hundreds of pages to find a relevant point either.

[_Q_]

The Ottoman vs. Turk thing is a bit of a silly point to be disputing in this thread anyways. In fact, both blankall and Flames Fan are correct in their own way. It's like trying to argue whether Soviets and Russians are the same thing. They are and they aren't, but it doesn't matter. Most Turks I know take great pride in the achievements made by the Ottomans, even tattooing dates that were significant to the Ottoman empire on their bodies. So if Turks see their history being one in the same, then surely they are.

As for the starvation thing, again, you guys are both right. I'm sure the obesity rate is high in Gaza because of the sanctions. Poverty causes you to seek out cheap, high calorie foods such as fast food or bread/rice. Also, unemployment and curfews probably have a negative effect on exercise. They may not have McDonalds or Wendy's in Gaza like in North America, but eating Falafel and Pita Bread all day to fill up can't be good for your health either. Sure, they might not be swatting flies from their face and dying of malnutrition, but they have had it pretty rough in Gaza (which is what blankall is kind of alluding to anyways).