Summer Prospect Ranking Poll Round 9

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

Are you also of the opinion that Feaster has his fingers crossed, pleading with the Hockey Gods, praying that Poirier might somehow find a way to, over the length of his career, somehow achieve all that Roman Horak has achieved to date???

I guess I shouldn't be too hard on you as you have your hands full watching the draft, I know.

Not sure what the hell your point is with these comments. I wasn't arguing that Horak has a greater upside than Poirier. In fact I have yet to vote for Horak and I've been voting for Poirier the last couple rounds.

Looks like you can decipher what my name means. I guess you've passed basic reading comprehension. Golf clap?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

Dude, I responded to EXACTLY what the guy wrote... No need to tell me what the thread is about, it's not relevant.

What this thread is about isn't relevant? Okay then.

Your comment was a bit silly. Because obviously Feaster didn't draft Poirier to be a borderline NHLer. And obviously Horak won't remain a borderline NHLer. So what was relevant about your comment?

Be a bit more playful genius.

[PlayfulGenius]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Not sure what the hell your point is with these comments. I wasn't arguing that Horak has a greater upside than Poirier. In fact I have yet to vote for Horak and I've been voting for Poirier the last couple rounds.

Looks like you can decipher what my name means. I guess you've passed basic reading comprehension. Golf clap?

Wow, I suggest you simply go back and re-read my original post that you argued with...you're not making any sense. I was commenting on a post that made a comparison between Horak and Poirier...I'm sure if you read it carefully enough, you too will find it ridiculous.

[PlayfulGenius]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

What this thread is about isn't relevant? Okay then.

Your comment was a bit silly. Because obviously Feaster didn't draft Poirier to be a borderline NHLer. And obviously Horak won't remain a borderline NHLer. So what was relevant about your comment?

Be a bit more playful genius.

Hahaha, now you're agreeing with my original point...nice!

I wonder if you'll notice??

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

Wow, I suggest you simply go back and re-read my original post that you argued with...you're not making any sense. I was commenting on a post that made a comparison between Horak and Poirier...I'm sure of you read it carefully enough, you too will find it ridiculous.

I have re-read your post.

Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

Yikes, I don't Feaster would have taken either in the 1st round if he expected hem to be what Horak is now, which a border line NHLer... Weak comment.

What is a little strange is that you compared Klimchuk and Poirier's upside with Horak's current stage of development. Seems more reasonable to compare their upsides? The Flames don't expect any of Klimchuk, Poirier or Horak to be borderline NHLers.

Monahan is a borderline NHLer at the moment and the Flames took him ahead of both Klimchuk and Poirier. Weird eh? Oh wait, maybe we should compare apples to apples and actually compare their upsides?

[PlayfulGenius]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I have re-read your post.



What is a little strange is that you compared Klimchuk and Poirier's upside with Horak's current stage of development. Seems more reasonable to compare their upsides? The Flames don't expect any of Klimchuk, Poirier or Horak to be borderline NHLers.

Monahan is a borderline NHLer at the moment and the Flames took him ahead of both Klimchuk and Poirier. Weird eh? Oh wait, maybe we should compare apples to apples and actually compare their upsides?

Wow, you can't possibly be that daft?!?!? Are you just screwing with me? Do you have the original poster on block or something and you can't see what I was responding to?!?! Surely there's a reasonable explanation here?!?!?

Seriously, can you see the post made by _Q_ ???

Can you see it was him/her that made the claim?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

Hahaha, now you're agreeing with my original point...nice!

I wonder if you'll notice??

I agree with you that Horak has been a borderline NHLer to this point. That point however is pretty much irrelevant to ranking our prospects since he has not achieved his complete upside. We're trying to rank these prospects based on how good they'll be as NHLers. Not how good they are right this second.

Do Klimchuk and Poirier have greater upsides than borderline NHLers? Of course. Does Horak have a greater upside than a borderline NHLer? Yup.

So why did you bring up borderline NHLers at all? That is what I'm still wondering about. As I said, guys like Krys Kolanos and Jamie Lundmark are/were borderline NHLers. I don't believe any of Poirier, Klimchuk or Horak look to be borderline NHLers at this point.

Commenting that the Flames should hope their 1st rounders in a deep draft will be better than a partially developed young player is right now is just a bad comparison. You are attempting to compare the upside of players drafted this year with the current status of a young player who hasn't fully established himself in the NHL yet. It is like comparing apples to oranges.

If you want to compare upside then do that.

If you want to compare current levels of development do that.

Don't try to mix and match by comparing upside vs current levels of development, it just doesn't make sense.

Horak - upside is a 3rd liner. Perhaps 2nd liner if he develops well. His current status as a borderline NHLer isn't particularly relevant except that he is closer to achieving his upside than Poirier or Klimchuk. Calling him a borderline NHLer in a discussion about prospect upside doesn't do much except confuse the issue because you make people think of true borderline NHLers like Krys Kolanos, Jamie Lundmark, etc.

That's my take anyways. Obviously we're nitpicking terms again. That's what most of arguing sports on the internet is anyways.

[PlayfulGenius]

I'm speechless... There's nothing more I can do... Please re-read post #54 as slowly and carefully as you can. Pay special attention to the quoted comment, as that is critical to the overall message flow.

Take note of words like 'already' and 'now'...don't kid yourself into thinking those are just meaningless throw-ins... Those words are as important as any others.

If its still a mystery to you why I reference Horak as he is now as opposed to his ceiling, I simply can't help you.

(HINT : it was _Q_ , the original post that I quoted, that actually made the comparison, not me...I hope that helps)

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

Wow, you can't possibly be that daft?!?!? Are you just screwing with me? Do you have the original poster on block or something and you can't see what I was responding to?!?! Surely there's a reasonable explanation here?!?!?

Seriously, can you see the post made by _Q_ ???

Can you see it was him/her that made the claim?

I saw his/her posts.

Originally Posted by _Q_

Went with Horak again simply because I think he's already at where Klimchuk/Poirier project to be.

Originally Posted by _Q_

That's it though. Horak is already a third liner who might one day become a second liner. Poirier and Klimchuk have both been projected to be third liners with 2nd liner as their ceilings. To me it makes no sense to put those two ahead of Horak when he has accomplished already what the other two some day hope to be.

Personally I didn't find it particularly outrageous. Horak is more proven. Horak shows 3rd/2nd line upside already in the NHL. If someone doesn't believe that Poirier/Klimchuk have 1st line upside then it is perfectly reasonable to have Horak ahead of them based on the fact he's far more proven. Personally I had Poirier ahead of Horak on my list but I put Horak ahead of Klimchuk due to his development and thus being more of a sure thing.

I found your terminology to be more suspect because you used the term "borderline NHLer" to describe Horak. It is true that up to this point in his career he has been a borderline NHLer. But you didn't exactly make that clear with the way you worded it. You compared Klimchuk's/Poirier's upside to Horak's historical status as an NHLer. If you don't believe that any of Klimchuk, Poirier or Horak will be "borderline NHLers" then why even bring that term into the discussion?

Poirier and Klimchuk aren't even borderline NHLers yet. So in that sense Horak is clearly ahead of them. But obviously this list isn't just about how far along the development curve the prospects are, upside has to be factored in. Poirier and Klimchuk look to have 2nd line upside we are hoping. Q believes they have 3rd line or perhaps 2nd line upside. Horak looks to have 3rd/2nd line upside depending on how much you think of his skill level. None of them look like borderline NHLers unless they bust.

Clearly Q isn't handing 2nd line upside to Poirier/Klimchuk until they show him/her more. That is a reasonable stance to take IMO. I don't necessarily take that exact same stance but I can't say it's unreasonable. I tend to think Poirier and Klimchuk might have a bit more upside than Horak. I'm assuming you do as well. Obviously this poll isn't strictly just about upside or a guy like Knight wouldn't go where he did. Some posters are putting more stock into development and how close guys are to the NHL. Others are going for pure upside. In both cases calling Horak a borderline NHLer in threads where we are talking about prospect values, prospect upsides and prospect development serves to obscure the issue instead of clarifying it.

Anyways kind of a fruitless debate. As I've said it seems an issue of terminology or semantics and nothing more. Clearly our opinions are very close. I just think you made your point imprecisely when you called Horak a borderline NHLer. Do you believe he'll be a borderline NHLer this upcoming season? Long term? If not then the term didn't really serve to help clarify the discussion.

[PlayfulGenius]

That's why I used the 'now'...pretty clear.

Summary...

Some dude said Horak has already achieved what Klimchuk and Poirier can aspire to be.

I retort by saying I'm pretty sure Feaster and Co expect Poirier to have a higher ceiling than what Horak has accomplished so far...

... Somehow you argue my point while continuously agreeing with it...while questioning why I'd be so crazy to compare Horak as he is now with Poirier's ceiling...which is exactly the post made by _Q_ (see post #54)

I'll move on now...I should have done so 30 minutes ago or so.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by _Q_

That's it though. Horak is already a third liner who might one day become a second liner. Poirier and Klimchuk have both been projected to be third liners with 2nd liner as their ceilings. To me it makes no sense to put those two ahead of Horak when he has accomplished already what the other two some day hope to be.

Originally Posted by _Q_

Went with Horak again simply because I think he's already at where Klimchuk/Poirier project to be.

Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

I'm speechless... There's nothing more I can do... Please re-read post #54 as slowly and carefully as you can. Pay special attention to the quoted comment, as that is critical to the overall message flow.

Take note of words like 'already' and 'now'...don't kid yourself into thinking those are just meaningless throw-ins... Those words are as important as any others.

If its still a mystery to you why I reference Horak as he is now as opposed to his ceiling, I simply can't help you.

(HINT : it was _Q_ , the original post that I quoted, that actually made the comparison, not me...I hope that helps)

Fair enough. Q believes Horak is already a 3rd liner with 2nd line upside. You believe Horak is a borderline NHLer at this exact moment.

I tend to believe Hartley could easily have played Horak all year as a 3rd/2nd liner but instead went with a veteran laden lineup to try and make the playoffs. Because he did you see Horak as a borderline NHLer. Under different marching orders Horak could easily have been seen as a proven NHLer last season. Hartley had different marching orders when Iginla/Bouwmeester were traded and Horak was an NHL regular at that point and a top 9 forward.

Using the same logic you are employing, Baertschi was a borderline NHLer last season. And yes the Flames are hoping Klimchuk and Poirier end up better than borderline NHLers, better than Baertschi was last season. But WTF is the point of saying that the Flames hope that Klimchuk and Poirier end up better than Baertschi was last season? Does that clarify anything?

We're trying to debate where Baertschi, Klimchuk, Poirier and Horak stand against each other long term. Not where Baertschi and Horak found themselves when the Flames were trying their one last push for the playoffs lead by Iginla and friends.

I'm ready to argue that Horak isn't a borderline NHLer in the post-Iginla era. He isn't a borderline NHLer now. He's a top 9 forward for the Flames barring a disastrous camp this fall. And yes, the Flames are hoping that Klimchuk and Poirier will end up as top 9 forwards in the NHL as well. They are probably hoping they will end up as a top 6 forwards. However Horak is more proven, I'm sure we can agree on that. When determining whether Horak is a better prospect than Klimchuk or Poirier you have to decide what you think their upsides are and how likely you think they are to achieve that. Given that Horak is already somewhat NHL proven his likelihood of achieving his upside is higher than Poirier and Klimchuk who have yet to play a pro game. If a fan (like Q) isn't sold that Poirier and Klimchuk are surefire 2nd liners then it is perfectly reasonable to put Horak ahead of them.

I just still have a problem with the term "borderline NHLer" in regards to Horak. Borderline NHLer to me is a 13th/14th/15th forward. I'd be willing to bet money that Horak will be a top 9 NHLer with the Flames next season.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...Name=timeOnIce

And lo and behold, if you check the TOI stats for the Flames guess where Horak sits amongst players who played at least 20 games last year? That's right, top 9 amongst forwards at 14:31 per game. Around twice as much as guys like Jackman, Begin and McGrattan.

So I guess your argument that he is a borderline NHLer rests upon the fact he was demoted at one point when the Flames were desperate to make one last playoff run with Iginla.

[Alberta_Beef]

I voted for Poirier as I feel he is the only prospect remaining with an outside chance at being a 1st liner. I almost went with Agostino though as I project him to be a middle 6 winger that is as valuable as a 1st liner because of his intangibles.

Weighing in on the Horak debate, I think he is a borderline NHLer that has the upside of being a good 3rd liner. But if the Flames insist on keeping him as a centerman his chance of being a regular NHLer is zero. I also think the odds of him being an impact player in the NHL is minimal.

[PlayfulGenius]

Poirier, I think, has an upside of a Geoff Sanderson + the ability to forecheck.

That description makes perfect sense to me, hopefully to others as well.

Of course, this is based on YouTube clips and my memory of Geoff Sanderson...neither are a real solid basis

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

What does that mean exactly? Borderline NHLer?

Horak looks to be a lock to be a 3rd line C/W and perhaps can develop into a 2nd liner.

Not sure how that makes him a borderline NHLer.

Weak comment by you I'd say.

I'm not overlooking the fact that Horak is still only 22, but I don't think he has that skillset that an ideal third line center has. He's not hard to play against, he's weak on his skates, he's not physical. A weak team like the Flames giving him time on the third line and occasional in the top 6 made sense, trying out the young guys. A team heading into the playoffs with him in their bottom 6 seems far from ideal.

He's got enough skill and hockey sense that he could definitely develop into a true top 6 forward, and a compete level that doesn't completely disqualify him from a bottom 6 role. It's just a lot tougher to secure his spot in the NHL as opposed to someone like Knight who has a lot of desirable assets that could make him an ideal bottom 6 center if he doesn't make it in a scoring role. Knight can win faceoffs, he's got decent speed, he can play two-ways, he's somewhat aggressive and has more size to back it up.

I don't think calling Horak a borderline NHLer is unfair. It's not about playing time or games played, it's about where he fits. He's not quite reached the skill level of a true top 6 player and he isn't an ideal bottom 6 player. To me that makes him a borderline NHL player. He's also only 22 years old and has a lot of time to change that.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

I'm not overlooking the fact that Horak is still only 22, but I don't think he has that skillset that an ideal third line center has. He's not hard to play against, he's weak on his skates, he's not physical. A weak team like the Flames giving him time on the third line and occasional in the top 6 made sense, trying out the young guys. A team heading into the playoffs with him in their bottom 6 seems far from ideal.

He's got enough skill and hockey sense that he could definitely develop into a true top 6 forward, and a compete level that doesn't completely disqualify him from a bottom 6 role. It's just a lot tougher to secure his spot in the NHL as opposed to someone like Knight who has a lot of desirable assets that could make him an ideal bottom 6 center if he doesn't make it in a scoring role. Knight can win faceoffs, he's got decent speed, he can play two-ways, he's somewhat aggressive and has more size to back it up.

I don't think calling Horak a borderline NHLer is unfair. It's not about playing time or games played, it's about where he fits. He's not quite reached the skill level of a true top 6 player and he isn't an ideal bottom 6 player. To me that makes him a borderline NHL player. He's also only 22 years old and has a lot of time to change that.

I think a good comparison for Horak is Byron Ritchie. Has enough talent to go on the occasion streak to make you think he can score at the NHL level, but doesn't have enough strength to be a force in the bottom 6.

I also really think Horak's hot streak in Abbotsford this past season got folks too high on his offensive game. Sure he scored 10 goals in 9 games to start the year. But he followed that up with 6 goals and 19 points the rest of the entire season (50 games). Quite honestly he is barely a top 6 AHL forward (if he is even that), nevermind NHL.

[kehatch]

Poirier should get a convincing win here. Nice that we are at 9th and just now getting in a mid first rounder from this draft.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

Do you watch the games? He's been in the AHL a fair amount, that makes him a borderline NHLer at he moment, how can you possibly argue that.

The original comment referred to Horak as he is right now...not even speculating what he might become...I hope he becomes a 2nd line player, I'm certainly a huge fan.

Are you also of the opinion that Feaster has his fingers crossed, pleading with the Hockey Gods, praying that Poirier might somehow find a way to, over the length of his career, somehow achieve all that Roman Horak has achieved to date???

I guess I shouldn't be too hard on you as you have your hands full watching the draft, I know.

12 AHL games in his first year as a pro 1 after the Flames were eliminated and 22 last year when the NHL was an option.

total of 34 AHL games when NHL was up and running.

34 AHL games and 81 NHL games at age 22.

The Flames and Feaster and more importantly I will be extremely happy if Poirier at age 22 only needed only 34 AHL games to be NHL ready.

[PlayfulGenius]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

12 AHL games in his first year as a pro 1 after the Flames were eliminated and 22 last year when the NHL was an option.

total of 34 AHL games when NHL was up and running.

34 AHL games and 81 NHL games at age 22.

The Flames and Feaster and more importantly I will be extremely happy if Poirier at age 22 only needed only 34 AHL games to be NHL ready.

Oh jeez...you do realize you're NOT arguing against what I wrote, right?

Do people even read in here?... What's the point?