Should players, sports organizations, or the whole COC boycott the Sochi Olympics?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I applaud Russia for banning gay propaganda in public. It is the will of their people who hold traditional family values. Taking your kids to a gay parade where grown men prance around in S&M outfits is child abuse.

The law does not seem that bad anyways. You guys make is sound like they are putting gays into prison camps.

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/col...imperialism-0/

Mikey, you've been gone for too long. Your trolling skills have diminshed.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by valo403

I'm sorry, but basic human rights are more important than sports. It would suck for an athlete, but I'll trade their disappointment for taking a stand on human rights every day of the week.

Of course you would, because you aren't the athlete. You aren't the one who trained day in and day out for 4 years just for these couple of weeks. It's easy to say so and so should do this or do that when it's not them that it affects.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by polak

I'm done arguing cause you guys simply refuse to acknowledge that a Canadian boycott will accomplish absolutely nothing.

It's not just the ability to compete in a sporting event. To say that is demeaning to what our athletes do. Imagine if you worked all your life to become a doctor. Missed out on a social life in your youth, studied for hours on end, every day, never had time for anything besides school and then all of the sudden you were banned from being a doctor. That's what your doing to these athletes in order to tell Russia that you don't agree with their law. Wow good job. Gold star for you.

You want to feel good as Canadian in support of gay rights? Go protest in russia during the olympics. Don't sacrifice others life long ambitions so you can pat yourself on the back for doing nothing.

I think a closer analogy would be that all of a sudden someone told you couldn't be a doctor because they don't allow dogs on the subway or something equally random. I understand that the human rights should take precedence over games, but from sports has nothing to do with gay rights, so why should the athletes suffer for it? I also agree that a country like Canada not going would do little to nothing. Now if Canada, USA, UK, Japan, etc... all boycotted that would be different, but the issue just isnt large enough to organize something like that.

I agree that a boycott wouldn't do much, and I think that a better method would be to have some type of badge on the uniforms or something. Maybe there will be a gay athlete that will do something to stand up for it (which would probably be the best case scenario for gay rights). Honestly if a gay athlete won a gold and did something on the podium to express themselves, and then something terrible happened to them as a result, it would do nothing but fuel the fire for gay rights. Obviously that would be terrible, but history tells us that society needs something shocking to cause mass shifts in ideals. And even then some won't change. I know gay people have had a rough go with this, but other groups have suffered similar treatment and it takes a long time for these things to wane out. It's coming, soonish, but a few more ignorant idiots need to die off

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Mikey, you've been gone for too long. Your trolling skills have diminshed.

Yeah, before I'd get mad at his opinions, now he's a caricature and although his angry, misguided, delusional opinions are no longer relevant, they're still annoying in that they take up space and disrupt the flow of discussions.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by polak

I'm done arguing cause you guys simply refuse to acknowledge that a Canadian boycott will accomplish absolutely nothing.

Actually it accomplishes my country not tacitly condoning human rights abuse. That's a pretty big deal to me.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I agree it is not big in Canada, but on a world stage it is big.

Finland is traditionally a big track & field country and I didn't notice, but yeah, it's one of the bigger sporting events in the world... sort of.

The problem with that claim is that the audiences are highly inflated by the huge number of countries participating The number of people who actually care is kind of debatable. I think it's telling that finding proper TV audience numbers for the event seems to be difficult.

In any case, it's not in the same ballpark than the olympics either in size, in audiences or symbolism.

Btw, for good measure the 2014 IIHF championships are held in Belarus, which for those who don't know has been a dictatorship for some time now. And yeah, there have been quite a few protests in Europe and calls to move them because of the human rights situation.

The IIHF has however taken a slightly different stance to the IOC; they actually have made veiled threats to Belarus about moving the competitions, and while it's hard to say if it has done any good, if nothing else it does seem that Belarus has avoided drawing attention to itself. (Which granted has been made easier by a pretty intense year and a half of news.)

[Coach]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Actually it accomplishes my country not tacitly condoning human rights abuse. That's a pretty big deal to me.

Yes but the point of a boycott is to enact change. If Canada backing out isn't going to at least cause a stir in Russia, why not look into possibly more impactful ways of getting the message across without nullifying the athletes efforts.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yes but the point of a boycott is to enact change. If Canada backing out isn't going to at least cause a stir in Russia, why not look into possibly more impactful ways of getting the message across without nullifying the athletes efforts.

You don't think if a handful of the bigger name countries pulled out, that it would cause a bit of a stir in Russia?

EDIT: I actually think one of the better moves would be to have the Men's hockey teams from the top countries withdraw. It doesn't hurt the amateurs and it still sends a message.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by rubecube

You don't think if a handful of the bigger name countries pulled out, that it would cause a bit of a stir in Russia?

I DO think it would, as I mentioned in my post above the one you quoted. But there's no way you could organize something like that. Gay rights is still a very hot-button issue in many countries, Canada being one of the few to publicly be for it. You think the States would back out of the Olympics for gay rights? It would cause an uproar down there.

And there would probably be more backlash in Canada from backing out then there would be in Russia as a cause.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yes but the point of a boycott is to enact change. If Canada backing out isn't going to at least cause a stir in Russia, why not look into possibly more impactful ways of getting the message across without nullifying the athletes efforts.

Well, that's what Polak is claiming, it's not necessarily true. Canada is a small country, but this is the winter Olympics, and Mens hockey will be one of, if not, the biggest draws. The excitement will be surrounding the Canada/Russia rivalry.

Canada is the reigning Olympic hockey champions, Russia wants to take that back on home soil. If people think Canada pulling out of these Olympics wouldn't be a blip on the radar, they're absolutely kidding themselves. We were first in Gold medals and third in overall medals last Olympics. We're not Latvia, here.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yes but the point of a boycott is to enact change. If Canada backing out isn't going to at least cause a stir in Russia, why not look into possibly more impactful ways of getting the message across without nullifying the athletes efforts.

Again, boycotts are not only about causing change in the target.

They are about showing that you have a principle that you're willing to hold on to.

If western countries would more consistently hold on to their human rights ideals, human rights problems in the world would decrease rapidly. Because everyone wants to do business with us.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Well, that's what Polak is claiming, it's not necessarily true. Canada is a small country, but this is the winter Olympics, and Mens hockey will be one of, if not, the biggest draws. The excitement will be surrounding the Canada/Russia rivalry.

Canada is the reigning Olympic hockey champions, Russia wants to take that back on home soil. If people think Canada pulling out of these Olympics wouldn't be a blip on the radar, they're absolutely kidding themselves. We were first in Gold medals and third in overall medals last Olympics. We're not Latvia, here.

While what you say about the hockey is true, a lot of European countries don't see it as intensely as we do. You're right that Canada would probably cause more of blip than I said. I didn't really think about the implications of no Canadian hockey, but I don't think the Europeans would take it as harshly as we think. We all know that Canada has the best group, but the US, Swedish, Finnish, Slovakian, Czech, and even Swiss teams are not exactly chopped liver and the hockey would still be great.

Also Euros take a lot more interest in the other sports than we as Canadians tend to do I think. We love the hockey, everything else is just there. Euros go crazy for the skiing and the ski jumping and the other, less sexy sports.

Originally Posted by Itse

Again, boycotts are not only about causing change in the target.

They are about showing that you have a principle that you're willing to hold on to.

If western countries would more consistently hold on to their human rights ideals, human rights problems in the world would decrease rapidly. Because everyone wants to do business with us.

I get this and you're definitely right about the last part. I just don't know if the Olympics is the proper setting for it as it is hurting people that really have nothing to do with it.

I know if I was going to the Olympics and they backed out for gay rights I would be pissed. Not because I am against gay rights, I am very much for them, but because what do gay rights have to do with the Olympic games? What do they have to do with me playing hockey, or biathlon or whatever?

The types of boycotts your talking about should be done on a diplomatic and socioeconomic scale like through trade embargos for example. Things that will actually hinder the country from operating if they don't comply. One country staying home from the Olympics doesn't accomplish close to that. Not many Canadians are going to be travelling to Sochi for the games. Not many Canadians are going to be tuning into their live broadcasts due to the time difference. I think they are probably more focused on bringing in tourism and such from closer neighbors, most of whom have similar issues.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by MattyC

While what you say about the hockey is true, a lot of European countries don't see it as intensely as we do. You're right that Canada would probably cause more of blip than I said. I didn't really think about the implications of no Canadian hockey, but I don't think the Europeans would take it as harshly as we think. We all know that Canada has the best group, but the US, Swedish, Finnish, Slovakian, Czech, and even Swiss teams are not exactly chopped liver and the hockey would still be great.

Also Euros take a lot more interest in the other sports than we as Canadians tend to do I think. We love the hockey, everything else is just there. Euros go crazy for the skiing and the ski jumping and the other, less sexy sports.

Fair enough, but you still have to consider that hockey aside, we still won the most gold medals, and were third in total medal count last Olympics. Canada is a huge player at the winter Olympics. If we boycotted, it would certainly be a huge loss and something the whole world would take notice of. It would be a huge deal, and I think (not necessarily you) people in this thread are really underestimating that fact.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Fair enough, but you still have to consider that hockey aside, we still won the most gold medals, and were third in total medal count last Olympics. Canada is a huge player at the winter Olympics. If we boycotted, it would certainly be a huge loss and something the whole world would take notice of. It would be a huge deal, and I think (not necessarily you) people in this thread are really underestimating that fact.

See I think your over estimating the impact Canada sitting out would have from a global perspective. There are much more effective and newsworthy ways to get a point across, and if the Canadian government truely had stones, it would use one of those. But as an exporting country that's probably not going to happen. But its what should happen to ALL human rights violators. Imagine if all other nations just stopped buying Saudi oil. Think that would change much? Eff ya it would. It wouldn't be all bright and shiny and likely cause wars, but it is what should be done. But that's for another discussion.

My point is there are better, more effective avenues to send a message to Russia, and I personally don't think that boycotting the Olympics is it. I can see why someone would think so, just not me.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I get this and you're definitely right about the last part. I just don't know if the Olympics is the proper setting for it as it is hurting people that really have nothing to do with it.

I know if I was going to the Olympics and they backed out for gay rights I would be pissed. Not because I am against gay rights, I am very much for them, but because what do gay rights have to do with the Olympic games? What do they have to do with me playing hockey, or biathlon or whatever?

Pretty much everything ever since the Russians decided that it does.

The types of boycotts your talking about should be done on a diplomatic and socioeconomic scale like through trade embargos for example. Things that will actually hinder the country from operating if they don't comply. One country staying home from the Olympics doesn't accomplish close to that. Not many Canadians are going to be travelling to Sochi for the games. Not many Canadians are going to be tuning into their live broadcasts due to the time difference. I think they are probably more focused on bringing in tourism and such from closer neighbors, most of whom have similar issues.

What you're basicly saying is that you're all for boycott but don't want to be affected by it. Thing is, if people are not affected by the boycott, nobody will care.

Also, when it comes to boycotts, you have to remember the power of example. Canada is a major power in the winter olympics. Them drawing out would make it much easier for other countries to follow.

I think the question of Canada not taking part in ice hockey is a good one. Even if Russia won, that victory would forever have an asterisk. If any of the other major hockey powers pulled out (US comes to mind, with their grievances over other issues combined with propably lack of TV interest), it would water down the olympics quite effectively. I would also think countries like Netherlands (big in skating) and some Nordic countries could easily join the boycott.

Heck, if you'd really want to throw snow in Russia's face, picture this; US, Canada and Sweden boycott the olympics. Instead the NHL organizes a Hockey World Cup before the 201-15 season, which obviously would happily collect all the major hockey powers. Except maybe Russians, if they'd feel like pouting.

(The NHL would love it.)

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Itse

Pretty much everything ever since the Russians decided that it does.

Russia didn't decide to make the Olympics about gay rights, people such as yourself are doing that. Which is fine, I'm not saying its a terrible route to go. I am however saying that I feel there are more effective and more appropriate ways of handling it.

Don't want it to hurt me? Trust, a trade embargo would hurt me and my line of work much worse than an Olympics boycott.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Russia didn't decide to make the Olympics about gay rights, people such as yourself are doing that. Which is fine, I'm not saying its a terrible route to go. I am however saying that I feel there are more effective and more appropriate ways of handling it.

Don't want it to hurt me? Trust, a trade embargo would hurt me and my line of work much worse than an Olympics boycott.

They did however, implement this law right before the Olympics and made specific comments about how this law will relate to and be used against tourists/athletes. So it's a little more connected than you're making it out to be, imo.

[GrrlGoalie33]

Any powerhouse countries pulling out of the Olympics would just serve to provide more Russian chest thumping as their medal count rises. I envision WBC style rhetoric "God gave Russia more medals because he hates gays and gay lovers".

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Frankster

Any powerhouse countries pulling out of the Olympics would just serve to provide more Russian chest thumping as their medal count rises. I envision WBC style rhetoric "God gave Russia more medals because he hates gays and gay lovers".

I am not sure about this, but if there aren't enough competitors, do they really hand out medals by acclamation? I would think events would get cancelled, hopefully, before giving Russia the satisfaction of being given a medal just for showing up, even if they are the strongest in that event and probably would have won anyway.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I am not sure about this, but if there aren't enough competitors, do they really hand out medals by acclamation? I would think events would get cancelled, hopefully, before giving Russia the satisfaction of being given a medal just for showing up, even if they are the strongest in that event and probably would have won anyway.

If it's only Canada that sat out? It wouldn't even get an asterisks. Think about if only Norway boycotted. Do you think you'd demean our medal count? Even if a country like Germany boycotted, I think you'd still take pride in each and every one of your medals.

I agree that a trade embargo would be a much more effective way of Canada making a stand and might actually make a difference (although I have no clue how much Russian/Canadian trade there is)