Should players, sports organizations, or the whole COC boycott the Sochi Olympics?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I think it is incredibly disappointing that this is not gaining more traction. Moneyed interests though once again trump human rights.

They were trumped long before this law was passed. Russia is a human rights black hole.

http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013.../russia?page=1

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by fotze

I think having our olympic organization being named COC is protest enough. We should send over to Sochi our biggest COC ever.

Dick Pound should be head of COC

[polak]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I think it is incredibly disappointing that this is not gaining more traction. Moneyed interests though once again trump human rights.

Well considering all the time, money and opportunity cost that was put in by our athletes, the vast majority of whom don't exactly live comfortably, to prepare for these games, I for one am happy it's not getting more traction.

As many others have pointed out, this has almost no chance of changing anything. I don't think it's worth wasting our athletes lives to try and change the minds of people who don't want to change. The idea of boycotting the Chinese games was a little different in that blame for the human rights issues were solely on the government of that country. In Russia, the majority of the population wants the law. Do you really think Canada not showing up to their Olympics is going to make hundreds of millions of Russians change their deep-rooted hate?

Lets imagine the absolute best case scenario and somehow this turns into a big movement and even countries that don't really show much of a stand on gay rights some how join (which would be needed) and this boycott makes an impact and the law is changed. Great, so you got rid of the threat of jail time for anyone supporting or demonstrating LGBT rights in Russia. Does it really make that big of difference when you still have to hide what you do cause of the constant threat of getting the s*** kicked out of you every where you go?

That's the best and most unlikely case scenario and even it is crap. You're talking about a country that has repeatedly told the world powers to go to hell and gotten away with it. Not showing up to their party isn't going to change anything for anyone but our own dedicated athletes.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by polak

Well considering all the time, money and opportunity cost that was put in by our athletes, the vast majority of whom don't exactly live comfortably, to prepare for these games, I for one am happy it's not getting more traction.

As many others have pointed out, this has almost no chance of changing anything. I don't think it's worth wasting our athletes lives to try and change the minds of people who don't want to change. The idea of boycotting the Chinese games was a little different in that blame for the human rights issues were solely on the government of that country. In Russia, the majority of the population wants the law. Do you really think Canada not showing up to their Olympics is going to make hundreds of millions of Russians change their deep-rooted hate?

Lets imagine the absolute best case scenario and somehow this turns into a big movement and even countries that don't really show much of a stand on gay rights some how join (which would be needed) and this boycott makes an impact and the law is changed. Great, so you got rid of the threat of jail time for anyone supporting or demonstrating LGBT rights in Russia. Does it really make that big of difference when you still have to hide what you do cause of the constant threat of getting the s*** kicked out of you every where you go?

That's the best and most unlikely case scenario and even it is crap. You're talking about a country that has repeatedly told the world powers to go to hell and gotten away with it. Not showing up to their party isn't going to change anything for anyone but our own dedicated athletes.

Yep, and heading off to an olympics hosted by them as if everything is swell is yet another example of them getting away with it.

[puckluck2]

Agree with most in this thread but get off your high horses and stop pretending that up until a few years ago homosexuals were given equal rights where you live and if you live in the States then it's likely gays are still being treated unfairly by your own government. There are messed up places in the world and we all live in it. Even in Canada and the United States.

Just because we and the States don't jail our gays doesn't mean we don't have a LONG way to go.

[polak]

Originally Posted by valo403

Yep, and heading off to an olympics hosted by them as if everything is swell is yet another example of them getting away with it.

It's not like this is the quarterly celebration of Russian culture and sport. It's the Olympics. If we're going to boycott every time it's hosted at a country who doesn't agree with our beliefs and ideologies despite it being impossible to change them, then we might as well just disband the COC.

It's great that you support the cause and say "I wish I boycotted, I can't believe Russians would do that, who cares if they won't change, we need to make a statement" but no offense, that's pretty easy to do when you're sitting there with nothing to lose.

If I was an athlete that was forced to boycott and nothing came from it, I'd lose my mind.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Dick Pound should be head of COC

Anthony Weiner!

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

Anthony Weiner!

Carlos Danger!

[valo403]

Originally Posted by polak

It's not like this is the quarterly celebration of Russian culture and sport. It's the Olympics. If we're going to boycott every time it's hosted at a country who doesn't agree with our beliefs and ideologies despite it being impossible to change them, then we might as well just disband the COC.

It's great that you support the cause and say "I wish I boycotted, I can't believe Russians would do that, who cares if they won't change, we need to make a statement" but no offense, that's pretty easy to do when you're sitting there with nothing to lose.

If I was an athlete that was forced to boycott and nothing came from it, I'd lose my mind.

I'm sorry, but basic human rights are more important than sports. It would suck for an athlete, but I'll trade their disappointment for taking a stand on human rights every day of the week.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by valo403

I'm sorry, but basic human rights are more important than sports. It would suck for an athlete, but I'll trade their disappointment for taking a stand on human rights every day of the week.

Valo, basic Human Rights have been abused in Russia prior to this law.

Have you been against the Olympics in Russia from the outset of them getting the games?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Valo, basic Human Rights have been abused in Russia prior to this law.

Have you been against the Olympics in Russia from the outset of them getting the games?

Sure have, I've been against many things Russia for a long time.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by valo403

Sure have, I've been against many things Russia for a long time.

Thanks, it just seems that much of world opinion shifted when this law came in. I don't follow the news too closely, but I can't recall all this popular mov't against Russia's games.

I must have missed the other thread you started about boycotting the games

[valo403]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Thanks, it just seems that much of world opinion shifted when this law came in. I don't follow the news too closely, but I can't recall all this popular mov't against Russia's games.

I must have missed the other thread you started about boycotting the games

Ha, well I'm not sure if I voiced it here but I was very against the awarding of these games, and the World Cup, to Russia.

I think the popular movement stems from a few things. One, information spreads so easily now that the abuses in Russia are much more evident to people around the world than they were even a few years ago. I also think that LGBT rights have become a pretty major social cause over the last few years, in many ways our generations equivalent to the fight for racial equality. The other aspect of this is that this is an institutionally supported denial of human rights, not just a antiquated culture, which elevates it to another level.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by valo403

Ha, well I'm not sure if I voiced it here but I was very against the awarding of these games, and the World Cup, to Russia.

I think the popular movement stems from a few things. One, information spreads so easily now that the abuses in Russia are much more evident to people around the world than they were even a few years ago. I also think that LGBT rights have become a pretty major social cause over the last few years, in many ways our generations equivalent to the fight for racial equality. The other aspect of this is that this is an institutionally supported denial of human rights, not just a antiquated culture, which elevates it to another level.

We are on the sameside of the argument, but I will say, that people are more interested in issues that they can see at home. IE: LGBT rights. People has trouble identifying with abuses in places far away. Remember the last Chechen War (both sides are a bunch of #######s) only ended in 2009. I think Russia had been awarded the games by in 2007? (guess on my part).

People had every oppurtinity to know what was going on in Russia and in Russian sphere of influence.

[You Need a Thneed]

Question.

Would we boycott Olympics in the USA for the same reasons? Sure, people don't get imprisoned in the US for being gay, but they can and do lose their jobs, etc.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Question.

Would we boycott Olympics in the USA for the same reasons? Sure, people don't get imprisoned in the US for being gay, but they can and do lose their jobs, etc.

None of what may happen in the US is state sponsored. A private employer firing someone over their sexuality may not be illegal in every state, but those are the actions of private citizens. Russia is using the power of the state to criminalize a wide variety of actions. Completely different things.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Question.

Would we boycott Olympics in the USA for the same reasons? Sure, people don't get imprisoned in the US for being gay, but they can and do lose their jobs, etc.

If the USA was imposing Jim crow laws, which is the equivalent of what we are talking about here, Canada would have a moral obligation as a world leader and in human rights to boycott and call international attention to the issue.

China is such a red herring in all of this, because its not an example of being hypocritical, its yet another example of corporate interests trumping human rights.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

China is such a red herring in all of this, because its not an example of being hypocritical, its yet another example of corporate interests trumping human rights.

So it is the same thing.....

[polak]

You're not fixing the human rights issue though. You're just making a statement at the cost of your athletes. A statement by a small country to a country who is about as defiant as can be. Sorry but imo, the life long dedication of our athletes trumps giving Russia a fruitless metaphorical middle finger.

I said earlier that I'm fine with the IOC stripping the games from Russia (Fifa should follow) and they probably should have never been awarded them in the first place. I'd also be fine with participating in a mass boycott in which these games would devastate the Russian economy due to low participation and tourism but neither of those are the situation.

Also acting like this is "just sports" is a pretty dumb way of looking at it when these athletes have literally devoted their entire lives to this opportunity.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think that the point that we're missing is that the Russian's simply don't care about external influence, if they did they would have softened their stance on Syria for example.

If Russia didn't care about external opinions, they wouldn't be holding the olympics. The olympics are way to trade money for international visibility and national popularity. That's why countries want to host them despite them being huge money sinks.

Besides, boycotts like these are about more than just changing minds in Russia. LGBT rights are discussed all around the world right now, Sochi or no Sochi.

Spreading pictures like this in social media

(Russian anti-LGBT violence linked to Olympic sponsors)

NSFW!

are the stuff of nightmares for olympic sponsors. I think it would be more accurate to say that the uproar has mattered already. The more noise people make, the more effect it will have, completely regardless of what the Russians do.

While it's unlikely to change policies outright, I believe it's likely that World Cup sponsors will put pressure on Russia and Qatar to tone their rhetorics down. But more importantly, corporations will do stuff like that in other places too. Not because they care about human rights, but because they want to avoid that kind of publicity. And when you have less politicians trying to gain popularity by picking on unpopular minorities, you have scored major victories in the long run.

As to Russia, they're mostly just grandstanding. You can be sure that they are regretting that they didn't at the very least delay their anti-gay laws until after the olympics were over, because this has been nothing short of a PR nightmare. They're hoping that once the games begin, people will be too focused on that to care about 'a bunch of gays'. Which is why things like important countries and athletes missing from the olympics matter, why protests and uproar matter, and why it would make all the difference in the world if the IOC actually took away their olympics.

Call it a game of brinkmanship. The Russians are counting that nobody will really care enough do anything. They're threatening to put LGBT athletes to jail if they show their colors. Call their bluff, and they lose. No country has ever put a visiting athlete in jail for something like this, not even the nazis. They will either look stupid in Russia or cause the kind of international crapstorm we have rarely seen.

Russians would obviously be outraged at the west, but also Russian businesses would be outraged at their politicians, and a lot of Russians who couldn't care less about LGBT people would also be really pissed at their leaders for messing up a good thing.

Look at that ##### Doll or whatever it is situation, tremendous international pressure was put on the Russian government to not prosecute and then to release those girls and they didn't relent.

Russian courts don't have corporate sponsors and are not the place for business networking.

America has put tremendous pressure on the Russians over Syria

Again, not a situation with a lot of corporate sponsors... well actually there propably are a lot of corporate sponsors hoping for the escalation of that conflict.

and over the Snowden situation

Protecting Snowden was a hugely popular move internationally. 'Muricans might be awfully pissed, but a lot of other countries and a lot of human rights organizations have been pleased. Besides, Snowden did something the Russians would want others to do, handing him over to US would be directly against Russian interests.

T.V. rights - a Tremendous amount of money flows into Russia's cash drawers from that. That's already been paid and advertising has already been sold. I doubt that the television carriers are going to back out, it would be a massive hit to them. I doubt that the advertisers will withdraw either.

This is a perfect reason to boycott by not watching.

Sponsor rights - I believe there is a split between the hosting nation and the Olympics. Again this has already been paid and the courts would side with the Olympics and Russia if agreements were broken and the money wouldn't be refunded If anything a boycott would hurt the sponsors who are the innocent parties in this whole thing as they paid long before the laws came into effect.

If they'd move the olympics, you could still run all the ads and have all the contests just the same. Not going to happen I know, but I'm sure it could be done, especially with the luck that the Vancouver was the last place to hold the olympics. You're a pretty well organized country, you could get it done.

Personally I think sponsors are far from innocent anyway. There is no such thing as innocent support to violent regimes.

There isn't much that can be done.

Of course there is. Nobody is forcing anybody to go to Sochi at gunpoint. Nobody is forcing you to watch it. Nobody is forcing countries to send their athletes, or forcing them to compete.

If they held the olympics in Vancouver, some money would be lost by some entities, but propably not really significant amounts in the grand scheme of things.

Personally I think one of the biggest holds against doing something is all the people saying that nothing can be done. Mostly stuff like this doesn't get done because people don't care enough to put their money where their mouth is, or to inconvenience themselves by not watching something they otherwise would.

Personally, I'm not going to watch the Sochi olympics, just like I didn't watch the Beijing olympics.