The Flames and Oilers rebuilds similar beginings

[Alberta_Beef]

Big difference that should not be ignored is the Flames were a borderline playoff team until this past season. The Oilers their 3 years finished with 2 top 10 picks including #6 in 2007 which is the same as ours this year.

[You Need a Thneed]

This is the Oilers' management we are talking about here... I'm now sure that they have figured out that they are rebuilding even now.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Big difference that should not be ignored is the Flames were a borderline playoff team until this past season. The Oilers their 3 years finished with 2 top 10 picks including #6 in 2007 which is the same as ours this year.

I always thought the Oilers screwed up in the Summer of 2007 by not realizing they should rebuild the team there. As I mentioned earlier they already had a 2nd first round pick going into the 08 draft, and maybe could have sold off some vets that summer. Instead they offersheeted Penner and gave up picks to do so, and signed a couple regretable UFA contracts. Had they gutted the team there and picked up players like Doughty, Duchene, Hall in the next three drafts they probably are a playoff team now.

So I'm glad the Flames didn't trade any of their picks at the draft, and for the most part didn't make any big splash type trades this offseason. They were very fortunate that Colorodo is ineptly managed and matched the O'Reilly offersheet. Hopefully that was a real wakeup call to the team and how they were managing the thing and just how bad it was.

[Tinordi]

Both teams started their rebuilds out very similarly: it took them both three years to acknowledge that they stunk and that they needed to rebuild. That's three wasted years essentially of taking your walk in the woods.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

This is the Oilers' management we are talking about here... I'm now sure that they have figured out that they are rebuilding even now.

It took them 4 years, but at least they finally took d-man with the their first round pick. One would think they are starting to learn a little. Part of me still worries they will be in the running for McDavid in a couple seasons.

[CalgaryFan1988]

I still disagree, The Oilers drafted 6th in 2007. The Flames may have missed the playoffs the last few years, but they were still close until this past season.

Flames are now where the Oilers were in 2007. Difference is Flames are admitting a full rebuild, whereas the Oilers treaded water for a few more seasons before admitting it.

[Tinordi]

Respectfully, the only thing we were close to was a quick exit out of the first round. Just because the Oilers fared worse at wallpapering over the cracks doesn't mean that both teams pretty much wasted three years and didn't acknowledge that the rebuild needed to happen when it did. Eerily similar trajectories of the two teams in the walk in the woods phase just one being three years ahead.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

I still disagree, The Oilers drafted 6th in 2007. The Flames may have missed the playoffs the last few years, but they were still close until this past season.

Flames are now where the Oilers were in 2007. Difference is Flames are admitting a full rebuild, whereas the Oilers treaded water for a few more seasons before admitting it.

The similarities are the fact both teams decided to sell their fanbases on rebuilds during the 4th season they were destined to miss the playoffs. There are similarities between the 07 Oilers and 13 flames considering both teams drafted 6th overall and had 3 picks in the first round. The Oilers spent that summer trying to reload and steal another teams rfa. They spent to the cap and told their fans they were going for the playoffs. In 2010 they preached patience and a slower/ proper rebuild. The flames approach seems much closer to 2010 Oilers than 2007. The flames are acknowledging te rebuild and no one is talking playoffs or spending for the sake of it.

[ricardodw]

similar problem

BPA are all small non-physical players. Easy to load up on these guys as other teams do not want.

Edmonton keeps on doubling down, always adding one more small guy to turn things around.

Feaster and the Flames have obviously read my posts on CP and have taken the correct steps to fix this glaring problem: Knight, Monahan, Galairdi, Cundari, SOB, Hankowski, David Jones, McGrattan, Reinhardt, Bouma, Russell IN all replacing smaller less physical players. Cervenka, Tanguay, Butler, Smith, Bouwmeester and soon to be Cammalleri and Stempniak and Stajan.


The Oilers talk about getting tougher but last year added another 2 small skilled guys - Yakapov and Schultz .... Just keep digging the hole deeper.

[FlamesAddiction]

I hate the term "re-tooling". Re-tooling was the worse thing to happen to the Oilers and the Flames throughout the lat 2000s.

You are either building or you're not. Re-tooling is rebuilding procrastination.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I hate the term "re-tooling". Re-tooling was the worse thing to happen to the Oilers and the Flames throughout the lat 2000s.

You are either building or you're not. Re-tooling is rebuilding procrastination.

And a term delusional fans use to avoid change or short term pain. It's a win-win strategy meaning it's baseless.

[Vinny01]

In my opinion the Flames tried to re-tool under Feaster. They went after Turris, O'Rielly, and constantly tried to get younger while keeping the same core. Feaster inherited a team that could not be re-tooled. A successful re-tool in my opinion is when the Canucks went from the Bertuzzi/NAslund/Morrison/Jovo group to the Sedins/Kesler/Edler group. They had homegrown talent that replaced the old core with only 2 playoff misses to show for it both of those teams were in the mix until late in the season.

Edmonton tried to do it in 07-09 by giving young players a chance and keeping a veteran core. The young lineup of Ganger, Cogliano, O'Sullivan, Brule, Nilsson to go with Horcoff, Hemsky, Penner was supposed to result in a solid playoff team once the young guys matured. The young guys outside of Ganger have not really panned out and they began to bottom out hard in 2010.

The Flames made a similar attempt but it certainly failed worse. Surrounding Iggy with aging players in Jokinen, and Tanguay. Sutter used to say Bourque, and Stajan were going to lead this team to the new era. He could not have been more wrong. Feaster tried to address these younger players by trading for Cammy, Stempniak and signing Hudler, Wideman and bringing in Comeau. To Feaster's credit he also tried for younger guys like Turris and RoR but didn't have the assets to get it done.

The Flames and Oilers HAD to rebuild when they did. The way the Canucks are built now they will also be in a similar territory in a couple years.

[Loyal and True]

great topic! I was thinking along the same lines. My view is that Flames 2010 compares to Oilers 2007. Both teams take 3 years to hit full rebuild mode.

I can accept that the flames needed 3 years because of Iggy's contract, with NTC and a first-ballot hall of fame career in a flames jersey. Not to mention Kipper's contract with NTC. Many wanted to abruptly blow it up, but I can understand why Feaster eased into it. Fans are either happy to witness career milestones such as 500 goals and 300 wins or frustrated that the rebuild couldn't be executed quicker for higher (marginally?) quality assets. Some fans wanted an even more aggressive strategy to go for it in 2010-2013 and start rebuild in 2014/15 with a shot at McDavid, but self-inflicted cap problems would make it difficult to improve the team in the short term.

Feaster traded Regehr for young players, generally resisted the urge to trade future assets to address short term needs. Feaster did try to sign Richards and ROR but ultimately the decisions of others allowed the rebuilding transition take its course.

The trade off is 3 years of mediocrity in exchange for some decent pieces like Baertschi, Jankowski et al to build upon now that the rebuild is entirely underway.

Edmonton's advantage in rebuilding is only that they sucked so hard and received 1st overall picks. They picked a series of small skilled forwards. I am not sure if the flames will have first overall picks or if they will draft better than the oilers. Time will tell...

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

similar problem

BPA are all small non-physical players. Easy to load up on these guys as other teams do not want.

Edmonton keeps on doubling down, always adding one more small guy to turn things around.

Feaster and the Flames have obviously read my posts on CP and have taken the correct steps to fix this glaring problem: Knight, Monahan, Galairdi, Cundari, SOB, Hankowski, David Jones, McGrattan, Reinhardt, Bouma, Russell IN all replacing smaller less physical players. Cervenka, Tanguay, Butler, Smith, Bouwmeester and soon to be Cammalleri and Stempniak and Stajan.


The Oilers talk about getting tougher but last year added another 2 small skilled guys - Yakapov and Schultz .... Just keep digging the hole deeper.

Feaster hasn't corrected any glaring problems. Guys like SOB, McGratton, Bouma don't fix anything. Tough, physical players aren't that useful unless they are capable of playing a regular shift, and can impact the game on the scoresheet.

[Loyal and True]

one comment regarding UFAs...

when/if a high quality UFA is open to hearing from your organization, there is an opportunity to drastically improve the quality of the team without trading long term assets. A GM has almost no choice but to explore the possibilities... even if it is to specifically accelerate the rebuild.

I realize that an 18 year old franchise player is potentially more valuable than a 27 year old high end UFA. Therefore many would choose to avoid the UFA and suffer at the bottom of the standings in order to obtain the high draft pick. In reality, this is a tall order for a GM of the day. Just ask Tambellini if he would do anything differently to accelerate the process and save his job.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Feaster hasn't corrected any glaring problems. Guys like SOB, McGratton, Bouma don't fix anything. Tough, physical players aren't that useful unless they are capable of playing a regular shift, and can impact the game on the scoresheet.

I agree with this for the most part. Having a team full of tough, physical players who can't play isn't any better than having a team full of small, softer skilled players.

However, tough, physical, bigger players may allow the smaller, softer players to play a little "bigger" and with more confidence from time to time. Ideally, you have big, tough players that are also highly skilled but there just aren't too many of those around. So, having a mix of skill and size is the next best thing.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

similar problem

BPA are all small non-physical players. Easy to load up on these guys as other teams do not want.

Edmonton keeps on doubling down, always adding one more small guy to turn things around.

Feaster and the Flames have obviously read my posts on CP and have taken the correct steps to fix this glaring problem: Knight, Monahan, Galairdi, Cundari, SOB, Hankowski, David Jones, McGrattan, Reinhardt, Bouma, Russell IN all replacing smaller less physical players. Cervenka, Tanguay, Butler, Smith, Bouwmeester and soon to be Cammalleri and Stempniak and Stajan.


The Oilers talk about getting tougher but last year added another 2 small skilled guys - Yakapov and Schultz .... Just keep digging the hole deeper.

You insistence that Russell adds any sort of toughness or physical play is as hilarious as it delusional. This team is softer with the addition if Russell.

[kehatch]

Both teams failed to recognize the need for a rebuild until the bottom fell out. Time will tell if we prove to be better off. It all comes down to the development of our prospects.

Will players like Baertschi be better then players like Cogliano? Will our three 2013 first round picks (Monahan, Poirier, Klimchuk) end up better then their three 2007 picks (Gagner, Plante, Nash)? Will Backlund have a bigger impact then Pouliot? Will we find out Eberle, Hall, RNH, etc?

I don't think you can say we are all that ahead of Edmonton in veteran department. is Hudler, Giordano, Wideman, and Glencross any better then Horcoff, Hemsky, Penner, and Souray?

The Flames could have been ahead of the curve by recognizing the need to rebuild two or three seasons ago. They didn't. Now we are in the basement throwing Hail Mary passes on prospects. As is always the case many fans are just assuming those passes will connect.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

So, having a mix of skill and size is the next best thing.

As Don Cherry said about the '89 Flames: 'The big guys go boom and the little guys go zip.' Not many players can do both, and the ones who do tend to cost far too much.

[Meers]

Today's model for success with a complete rebuild is Chicago during the half decade from 02/03 to 07/08 when they missed the playoffs.

Ideally, I'd rather have Feaster looking to the Windy City rather than Calgary's neighbor to the North for a blueprint.

Accordingly, I think the pertinent question is not how the Flames' rebuild compares with the Oilers'. Rather the question should be whether the Flames are where the Blackhawks were four years into their rebuild?

When you look at how Chicago rebuilt from 02/03 to 07/08 and put in place the key players for it's 2010 Cup win, a few things become clear:

Players Drafted

Keith 02 - 54th
Seabrook 03 - 14th
Byfuglien 03 - 245th
Bolland 04 - 32nd
Bickell 04 - 41st
Brouwer 04 - 214th
Hjalmarsson 05 - 108th
Toews 06 - 3rd
Kane 07 - 1st

Players Acquired in Trades

Sharp 05/06
Versteeg 06/07
Havlat 06/07
Ladd 07/08

Free Agents

Niemi 08/09
Campbell 08/09
Hossa 09/10

Firstly, the Hawks' draft picks were the most vital element to their Cup success. But, aside from Toews and Kane, many of these players were not high draft picks. Chicago did very well with their drafting in the late first round and subsequent rounds to find key talent and role players. So scouting junior talent is key. Secondly, Chicago was active in the trade market and able to bring in talent via trades. Finally, top end free agents like Hossa and Campbell were added after the rebuild had been largely completed to push an already solid team over the top.

So, are the Flames where the Blackhawks were four years into their rebuild?

The answer, to my mind, is . . . probably not. I can't quite see Monahan being the next Toews. But, more importantly, I don't see a Norris calibre Keith/Seabrook-type blue line pairing slowly honing their craft on the Flames, or a serviceable monster like Byfuglien on the squad, or an emerging checking centre like Bolland developing, or a quality second-liner like Sharp having been brought aboard.

The Hawks managed to accumulate quite a bit of talent during their first four years wandering the non-playoff wilderness. The Flames, sadly squandered some of their years of suckage - and not having any first or second rounders in the 2010 draft certainly didn't help.

Ah well, as a famous American advice columnist once said, "It gets better."

(Unfortunately, that author also assumed that the advice recipient would be repeatedly sodomized for years on end . . . which, sadly, is how the next few seasons of Flames hockey are shaping up.)