Canada vs. The World (All Time Teams)

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Ummm no. Gretzky and Lemieux came up big when it counted. If you can't see the difference, I can't help you

I'm not suggesting that Lemieux and Gretzky did not come up big. What I am suggesting is normalizing the statistical data if you are going to use that as the comparison. When you do that the statistical gap disappears. If you can't see how that would affect the argument of Lemieux and Gretzky being way ahead of the Soviets, I can't help you.

[SeeBass]

^ Well no it started with somebody was saying Wayne and Mario were amazing and the Russians best couldn't stop them.

So your stance was take out a full game and a power play and those stats are an abnormal spike so ignore them.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by New Era

I'm not suggesting that Lemieux and Gretzky did not come up big. What I am suggesting is normalizing the statistical data if you are going to use that as the comparison. When you do that the statistical gap disappears. If you can't see how that would affect the argument of Lemieux and Gretzky being way ahead of the Soviets, I can't help you.

You used Gagner's one game, 8 pt night as an example to demonstrate that single games can impact statistics. I made a point that it is a very poor example because coming up big in the game that matters is what makes great players great. Getting 8 pts in a regular season game because the other team mailed it in is a completely different thing.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by New Era

Yeah, not so much. The Soviets were extremely consistent and machine like. That's why of the top 10 scorers 7 were Soviets. And really, the 2nd game of the finals was really the difference in scoring totals. Gretzky had a 5 point game and Lemieux had the natural hat trick. Outside of that the lines were pretty square.

In fact, outside of "the goal" the Gretzky-Lemieux tandem was pretty quiet, outside of the power play, in the final game. The Soviets jumped on the Canadians and looked like they were going to run the host team out of their own barn. It was the grinders that got the Canadians back in the game, lead by Tocchet, Sutter and Hawerchuk. People don't appreciate the little things the grinders did that game, allowing the big names to earn the glory. If it were not for Hawerchuk dragging down Bykov, in an obvious uncalled interference penalty, the Canadians wouldn't have had the odd man rush that led to the Lemieux goal. What really hurt the Soviets was Larianov's injury and his inability to center the top line. I still remember that series like it was yesterday. Man I wish they would bring the Canada Cup back!

Gretzky had 2.33 PPG
Lemieux 2.00
Makarov 1.67

Even without the final game (and again, coming up big in the final game is kind of important to me), Gretzky still wins the scoring title.

Maybe If the Russians had come up big in the final, things would have looked a bit different, but they didn't.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Again, I am not discounting the performance of Lemieux or Gretzky. Their performances were one for the ages. The Soviets were just as dominant. The point totals don't tell the whole story of the tournament or the games. The Soviets shut down Gretzky and Lemieux in the final game. The only real time they were a threat was on the PP and for the winning goal. I remember a lot of concern and comments on the broadcast about the job the Soviets were doing and that other players would have to step up. It was tense as hell because the games were so close and the teams so balanced. Or do you not recall being glued to the broadcast?

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Gretzky had 2.33 PPG
Lemieux 2.00
Makarov 1.67

Even without the final game (and again, coming up big in the final game is kind of important to me), Gretzky still wins the scoring title.

Maybe If the Russians had come up big in the final, things would have looked a bit different, but they didn't.

So if the argument is that Gretzky and Lemieux were better than Makarov, I'd agree.

I wouldn't agree with any other players than Gretzky and Lemieux, and clearly since the Soviets won their fair share of games, it was clear they were comparables, but ultimately there is little shame in being 3rd in a list of those 3 players.

Much like being Bobby Orr or Gordie Howe. You're still a legend, even if you're not the best ever.

[V]

Originally Posted by New Era

I'm not suggesting that Lemieux and Gretzky did not come up big. What I am suggesting is normalizing the statistical data if you are going to use that as the comparison. When you do that the statistical gap disappears. If you can't see how that would affect the argument of Lemieux and Gretzky being way ahead of the Soviets, I can't help you.

Haha, you don't normalize statistical data by ignoring more than one third of the data.

1 out of 48 games is different, yes, you can consider Gagner's 8 point game an outlier.

But you can't ignore Gretzky's 5 point game, nor can you classify it as an outlier, when he scored plenty of 5 point games in his career. I'm sure Lemieux had a hatrick or two in his career too.

[Tinordi]

Team Russia

Datsyuk - Malkin - Bure
Krutov - Larionov - Makarov
Ovechkin - Fedorov - Kharlamov
Kovalchuk - Yashin - Mogilny

(Kovalev, Zhamnov, Kozlov, Samsonov, probably a bunch of other old dudes)


Fetisov - Zubov
Kasatonov - Gonchar
Kasparaitis - Zhitnik

(Malakhov, Markov, Mironov, etc. ?)

Tretiak
Nabokov/Khabibulin/BOBROVSKY!!!!!!

There's a much much better Team Russia than this.

[elpatzer]

It's too bad we don't have any older posters. I would love to get feedback from the older generation about Howe we missed some of the greatest players.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

There's a much much better Team Russia than this.

I'm sure there is...I clearly said I undervalued some of the older generation because I didn't know enough about them. Who would you replace with who?

Yashin, Mogilny and Kovalchuk might be somewhat laughable, but each had Lindros-esque flashes of dominance...

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

There's a much much better Team Russia than this.

Kharlamov-Petrov-Mikhailov
Krutov-Larianov-Makarov
Yakushev-Malkin-Maltsev
Datsyuk-Bykov-Ovechkin
Bure


Vasiliev-Gusev
Kasatonov-Fetisov
Bilyaletdinov-Zubov
Ragulin

Tretiak
Mylnikov

This would be my lineup. A lot of the old guys are ones that the Russians that play in the NHL today grew up idolizing. Some incredibly awesome talent on this team.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

This would be the team Canada that I would put together if I wanted to win, speed, size, skill, toughness, defensive forwards and leadership. I don't like Lafleur on a fourth line but he was too good not to put him there.

Bobby Hull - Gretzky - Howe
Esposito - Lemieux - Richard
Messier - Trottier - Bossy
Gainey - Clarke - Lafleur
Yzerman

Robinson - Orr
Bourque - Potvin
Harvey - Park
Coffey

Roy
Brodeur
Sawchuk

If I was to select a second team Canada it would likely be pretty damn good as well.

Mahovlich -Beliveau - Geoffrion
Lindsay - Sakic - Recchi
Shanahan - Crosby - Iginla
Robitaille - Dionne - McDonald
Perreault

Pronger - Niedermayer
Blake - MacInnis
Shore - Stevens
Pilote

Dryden
Parent
Fuhr

[elpatzer]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

This would be the team Canada that I would put together if I wanted to win, speed, size, skill, toughness, defensive forwards and leadership. I don't like Lafleur on a fourth line but he was too good not to put him there.

Bobby Hull - Gretzky - Howe
Esposito - Lemieux - Richard
Messier - Trottier - Bossy
Gainey - Clarke - Lafleur
Yzerman

Robinson - Orr
Bourque - Potvin
Harvey - Park
Coffey

Roy
Brodeur
Sawchuk

That team is frigging scary. Many players I never saw but have had a few older people tell me about but honestly, how does any country beat that?

My only question would be Gainey ... was he really that good?

[bossy22]

Originally Posted by elpatzer

That team is frigging scary. Many players I never saw but have had a few older people tell me about but honestly, how does any country beat that?

My only question would be Gainey ... was he really that good?

Yes, Bob Gainey was termed the world's best all-around player by Soviet national team coach Viktor Tikhonov.