Tim Hortons a Flop in the US

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I see your point. I guess I'm just looking at it from an outside perspective. If I were to ask you what you think US culture is my guess is the words guns, baseball, obesity, etc....

If you were to ask an international what they think Canadian culture is, my guess is Tim Hortons lands in there somewhere. Probably in the top 5. I'm not saying that people have to like it, it's just something that is identifyable as something purely Canadian. Whether it is PURELY Canadian when considering their corporate structure or whatever isn't really a relevant point. Whether or not they have since super-saturated themselves in the market of "being Canadian" is also irrelevant.

I don't buy Tims coffee because I feel like I'm funding Canadianism or something. I buy it because its convenient and inexpensive and not bad.

But just like you have to try the fish n chips in England, just like you have have an American cheesburger in the US, you have to have a Tim's coffee in Canada. Whether you like it or not, whether Tims is a driving force of the campaign or not really doesnt matter. What matters is that Tim Hortons is associated with Canada in a very big way nationally and internationally. And in my mind that makes it part of our culture.

And just because a few people here (and judging by product sales they are in the vast minority) hate Tims and all it stands for, doesn't offset the millions that visit Tims everyday making it a cultural phenomenon.

Only among the extremely ignorant or lazy

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

Kinda surprised. Tim's is definitely better than Dunkin Donuts.[/I]

There's probably Canadian bias in there or people really just don't make the distinction between lower end coffee.

I've been reading Yelp, etc. posts from Americans about Tim Hortons over the years since the expansion and most are not too overly impressed. They simply view it as another generic doughnut & coffee place.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by valo403

I don't think people go solely due to the patriotism angle, but it definitely has been a big part of the marketing strategy during a massive growth period. The biggest reason people go into places like Tim's is familiarity, if you grew up drinking tim's coffee that's what coffee tastes like, and dammit you're going to learn to like it!

I dont really know what to say about that. You're saying that they're brainwashed? Are they happy? Whats the endgame?

[Coach]

Originally Posted by valo403

SInce when is Ford an American icon? They're a global auto manufacturer. Even in Michigan I never heard Ford referred to as an American icon. Perhaps in the 70's and 80's when the domestic v. foreign fight was at its peak that would have been the case, but now Honda's are built down the road from the Ford plant which is down the road from the GM plant and the Toyota plant.

I just googled "Ford american icon" and got returns of articles, scholar papers, journals, blogs, etc.... all labeling Ford as an American icon. I googled Honda american icon right after. All I got was the same articles than mention it as a competitor. Ford, the cars, the man, the logo, is American. Its an American company making American cars for American people. Now this was once the actual truth, now with a more globalized society its mmore of a mantra, but it is still culturally American.

People obviously feel differently about this, but I am proud when a Canadian company gets global recognition. Tims is a bit different because they have global recognition BECAUSE they are distinctly Canadian, but even something like RIM at the hieght of its status brought me pride as a Canadian. That something like the Blackberry could be invented in Canada and take on the world market the way it did gave me pride in Canadian innovation. And it saddens me to see them fall. I don't see anything wrong with rooting for Canadian companies.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Locke

I dont really know what to say about that. You're saying that they're brainwashed? Are they happy? Whats the endgame?

Not brainwashed, they just know what they know so they go back to the familiar. Lots of people do that with all kinds of things. I use irish spring soap, I don't know if it's good or not but it's soap and it's cheap and I smell like less of a hobo afterwards so I buy that. I go to the same couple of spots for lunch most days, there might be better sandwiches around but I'm familiar with these spots so I know they'll get the job done. Oddly enough I switch up my coffee spot quite a bit.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by valo403

Only among the extremely ignorant or lazy

Arent all cultural stigmas based on ignorance?

There are a lot of people who don't play hockey in Canada, and maybe even take offence to it being associated with all Canadians the way it is. So hockey is only Canadian to the ignorant?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by valo403

Not brainwashed, they just know what they know so they go back to the familiar. Lots of people do that with all kinds of things. I use irish spring soap, I don't know if it's good or not but it's soap and it's cheap and I smell like less of a hobo afterwards so I buy that. I go to the same couple of spots for lunch most days, there might be better sandwiches around but I'm familiar with these spots so I know they'll get the job done. Oddly enough I switch up my coffee spot quite a bit.

Okay, I can grasp that, brand recognition and familiarity with the product. I'm no better with beer, if I'm somewhere unfamiliar I order Keith's, my staple. Its nothing exotic but I like it.

I'm just wondering whats wrong with that?

Maybe they like it for that, horribly bad for you, cream. Or maybe they dont give a rat's ass what it tastes like they just want their jolt.

I know personally, I get a Tim's coffee because it tends to come with my sandwich.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I just googled "Ford american icon" and got returns of articles, scholar papers, journals, blogs, etc.... all labeling Ford as an American icon. I googled Honda american icon right after. All I got was the same articles than mention it as a competitor. Ford, the cars, the man, the logo, is American. Its an American company making American cars for American people. Now this was once the actual truth, now with a more globalized society its mmore of a mantra, but it is still culturally American.

People obviously feel differently about this, but I am proud when a Canadian company gets global recognition. Tims is a bit different because they have global recognition BECAUSE they are distinctly Canadian, but even something like RIM at the hieght of its status brought me pride as a Canadian. That something like the Blackberry could be invented in Canada and take on the world market the way it did gave me pride in Canadian innovation. And it saddens me to see them fall. I don't see anything wrong with rooting for Canadian companies.

Ford is a company that revolutionized industry, and yes at one time they were a symbol of American industry. Now they're no different than any other car company. As I said, people in Michigan, down the street from Ford headquarters, don't even talk of Ford as an American icon. they are simply another global auto maker.

The idea that a corporation represents any culture simply by virtue of where they started out is ridiculous. If a company possess inherit values of a society or if they revolutionize society as Ford did, then sure they can become a cultural touchstone, but marketing campaigns with maple leafs and sponsoring a ton of hockey doesn't make Tim Horton's a Canadian cultural symbol on its own.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Arent all cultural stigmas based on ignorance?

There are a lot of people who don't play hockey in Canada, and maybe even take offence to it being associated with all Canadians the way it is. So hockey is only Canadian to the ignorant?

You've been referencing cultural symbols or institutions, not stigmas.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Locke

Okay, I can grasp that, brand recognition and familiarity with the product. I'm no better with beer, if I'm somewhere unfamiliar I order Keith's, my staple. Its nothing exotic but I like it.

I'm just wondering whats wrong with that?

Maybe they like it for that, horribly bad for you, cream. Or maybe they dont give a rat's ass what it tastes like they just want their jolt.

I know personally, I get a Tim's coffee because it tends to come with my sandwich.

Oh I don't think there's anything wrong with that. If you like something then hey go for it. I have a friend who only drinks bud light, we'll be at great beer spots and he'll get a bud light and I want to break a chair over his back for not enjoying a great Belgian Tripel brewed by monks in some abbey but it's always going to be bud light because that's what he likes. I think trying new things should be encouraged, but sometimes there are go to's that just can't be replaced.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by valo403

You've been referencing cultural symbols or institutions, not stigmas.

Well you only referenced my American stigmas in your response so I'll address the Canadian ones.

Do you disagree that someone outside of Canada would associate drinking Tims with being Canadian?

IE if you were walking about in the US with a Tims hat, would it be safe for someone to assume you are Canadian? Probably.

Alternatively, if you were to see someone in Canada wearing an NFL cap, would it be safe to assume they are American? No not really.

So which one is more culturally relevant? I would venture to say most people would say NFL (or american football in general) is part of US culture. IMO, having a Tims cup in your hand is as close to having a Maple Leaf tattoo on your forehead as you can get without actually having one, as far as being recognized as a Canadian goes (not that its on the same level of patriotism or stupidity).

I can see that we will probably not agree on this so we're probably going to have to drop it. But my final stance is still that Tim Hortons is a part of Canadian culture. Manufactured or not, warranted or not, its there.

[troutman]

Tims just had to add biscuits and white gravy to the US menu.

[sun]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Everyone hates Mr. Popular. Remove 'Tim Hortons' insert 'Apple' and would be the same thing with haters telling everyone how terrible their products are.

Blech, I hate when people use this argument. Those hating on Tim Hortons are doing so because the coffee is mediocre toilet water, the donuts are pre-packaged awfulness, and the food is atrocious. We're not bashing it because you and others patronize it.

We're not trying to look down our noses at the unwashed masses, we've just all had the misfortune of sampling their wares.

[sun]

And what the fata happened to the apostrophe?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Well you only referenced my American stigmas in your response so I'll address the Canadian ones.

Do you disagree that someone outside of Canada would associate drinking Tims with being Canadian?

IE if you were walking about in the US with a Tims hat, would it be safe for someone to assume you are Canadian? Probably.

Alternatively, if you were to see someone in Canada wearing an NFL cap, would it be safe to assume they are American? No not really.

So which one is more culturally relevant? I would venture to say most people would say NFL (or american football in general) is part of US culture. IMO, having a Tims cup in your hand is as close to having a Maple Leaf tattoo on your forehead as you can get without actually having one, as far as being recognized as a Canadian goes (not that its on the same level of patriotism or stupidity).

I can see that we will probably not agree on this so we're probably going to have to drop it. But my final stance is still that Tim Hortons is a part of Canadian culture. Manufactured or not, warranted or not, its there.

You're assuming that Tim's has brand identification in the US, which in my experience it doesn't. When Tim's first moved into NYC some people knew it as a Canadian brand, but most people who weren't from upstate NY didn't know anything about it. I can't imagine the majority of people would have any idea what your hat or coffee cup meant beyond it being a place called Tim Horton's.

[Coach]

I guess this is where we differ, as I see Tim's being pretty internationally recognized as Canadian. This IMO makes it culturally Canadian. Now maybe this is not necessarily the case, but my experience is most Americans know what Tim's is and know as something that is purely, identifiably Canadian.

[_Q_]

I don't know, maybe if by "international" you mean American border towns/states with a lot of cross border traffic, then sure.

I've travelled to a ton of places and never get anyone mention Tim Hortons to me. Usually they'll mention hockey, the Rocky Mountains, Montreal strip clubs, cold weather, mounties, or maple syrup. I think, MattyC, you way over estimate the brand recognition of Tim Hortons.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I guess this is where we differ, as I see Tim's being pretty internationally recognized as Canadian. This IMO makes it culturally Canadian. Now maybe this is not necessarily the case, but my experience is most Americans know what Tim's is and know as something that is purely, identifiably Canadian.

All I can tell you is that as someone who lives in the US, in an area that Tim Hortons attempted to establish a number of franchises (most of which were Dunkin conversions after a large franchisee had a falling out with DD), the vast majority of my friends weren't familiar with the brand. Some gave me the 'is that Canadian?' Some knew it from ads at hockey games or were from upstate and grew up around it, but most saw it as a new coffee place, no different from Gregory's or Coffee Bean, two other spots moving into the market recently.

When I lived in Australia I don't remember hearing the words Tim Hortons from anyone but a Canadian. Same story in the UK.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I don't know, maybe if by "international" you mean American border towns/states with a lot of cross border traffic, then sure.

I've travelled to a ton of places and never get anyone mention Tim Hortons to me. Usually they'll mention hockey, the Rocky Mountains, Montreal strip clubs, cold weather, mounties, or maple syrup. I think, MattyC, you way over estimate the brand recognition of Tim Hortons.

I get that one all the time, which fills me with pride.

[Riles]

I know Tim's coffee isn't the best, but when I've been in the U.S. for 2 or 3 weeks, I do love having one at the Calgary airport when I return.
It just feels like home.