It's time to retire #14

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

MacInnis remains an employee of the Blues. He appears to be serving in the same capacity that Conroy does here.

As far as the "Forever a Flame" thing goes, it is a goofy name, but it is the process going forward. It doesn't matter what you call the ceremony itself, Theo and Iggy's numbers are already retired. Nobody will wear them again. The rest is just details.

Toni Lydman wore #14 in his first training camp the year after Theo was delt

Originally Posted by krynski

Oh heck no. You can't hold someone else accountable for your own actions. That's ridiculous. Should someone cheap on their partner because their partner cheated on them? Should the Columbine shooter should have a clean slate because society treated him like crap? Does a terrorist get an excuse because he was heavily indoctrinated?

At some point, you have to do some self reflection and ask yourself if you are doing the right thing. I'm not saying that one can't make mistakes, but one should do something to at least acknowledge that they did the wrong thing and the only person at fault is himself.

Did Fleury commit adultery, kill anyone or commit a terrorist attack?

Or did he just make a few critical comments?

[Stay Golden]

Fleury is being scrutinized by the Flames even after he has atoned for his wild lifestyle by confessing to it all and becoming extremely charitable of his time and money.
Fleury is not running for public office he was damn hockey player the best forward in Flames history until Iggy had his career here and the fans are looking for the friggin #14 to be retired.
What bothers me most is that the Flames organization is not honoring their history with Theo and has given a hypocritical response to the Fleury debate by hanging #30.

Hey KKing, Edwards and company Theo didn't go to jail for abusing boys. He was the victim of a sexual deviant, a monster so wake up you schmucks.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

For me this is a pretty easy decision, he was the face of the franchise in the 90's, lead the team in scoring 6-7 times, scored 100 pts 2x, 50G 2x, Stanley Cup, Gold Medal, 6 All Star games as a Flame, 2nd all time in Goal and Points.
While I would agree that a HHOF or Retired Number nomination should also consider character and off ice activity, I don't think Theo's crossed the line enough to disqualify him. The large majority of his behaviour was self destructive.
I also believe Nieuwendyk should be honoured, and I think one can make a very good case for the likes of Jim Peplinski and Joel Otto, who were with the team for 700 games and were key contributors during their era, and both have been exemplary alumni members.

Didn't take Theo long to have the fans back on their feet when he came for a tryout, for those who never watched him that was vintage Theo!! The guy was dynamite.. I used to love watching play with an edge and fire in his belly. He brought passion to the game, wore his heart on his sleeve, played like the fans were on the ice with him. I wish I could turn the clock back and watch him play one more time!!

The guy deserves to have his jersey retired I don't care what else he has done. It's like your brother sister, your mom or dad when they make bad mistakes we still love the and remember all the good things about them. That's how I remember Theo and a few negative Nelly's on this board are not going to sway my opinion!

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by krynski

I agree with you on a lot of things here. Yeah, I don't hate Fleury. I certainly admire his skill, and valued him in Flames threads. I just don't like how he phrased things on more than several occasions. To me, he was great on the ice, he was just publicly negative towards the organization and to its members. In that manner, it showed that his character lacked respect and common courtesy. Unfortunately, this was self destructive (among all the other self-destructive activities he took part in).

These character flaws destroyed his relationship with members of the organization, and some members of the fan base. This is what holds him back (or the grounds that I would hold him back from joining others in the rafters). I believe that one day, the Flames organization will retire his jersey- despite it all.

For all of you looking for a quote from him:

"At one hundred and eighty pounds, I finished 11th out of 56 guys at camp in the fitness test and scored a historic shootout goal in an exhibition game after being out of hockey for six years," Fleury reportedly wrote. "What does that say about the talent level in the NHL? 4 points and a plus 4 rating in four exhibition games and I get cut. What a joke! Craig Conroy goes the first 37 games of the season with zero goals. I wonder how many I would have had?"

"Even with all the stupid people that run the game of hockey, it's still a great game. Go figure,"

"Do I feel the same way today? Maybe not. Thing is, why should I get heat? I have nothing to do with hockey anymore,"

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=305248

I'd be pissed too.

He got cut off a country club retirement home after outproducing some of the old tired country club residents. He was more right than he knew at the time, that team didn't even get to the first round.

He didn't look great, but wow, proof is in the pudding when conroy gets a spot on the team because he's buddies with Iginla and they make him retire midseason because he probably shouldn't have made the roster in the first place.

Nigel Dawes scored roughly 30 points that year. Fleury probably should have beat him for a roster spot.

This is all hindsight, but it appears as though for most of the conversation about his bad attitude is a) focused on recent things he's said, and b) not blowing smoke and shining up turds.

3 Months later, Darryl was gone, Conroy was retired, Calgary was out of it and Nigel Dawes was patrolling the second line wing position, with no flames player scoring 70 points that season.

Theo probably wasn't good enough to make the team, but so were other players on that roster who did make it.

Is it really coming down to 'if Fleury spoke in meaningless platitudes and showed zero emotion his number would be retired"? That's 'effing stupid.

[moon]

Conroy looked better in pre-season, plays a much better all round game, is a good guy in the room and isn't a POS. Pretty easy decision over an old, crappy guy with a bad attitude that showed that playing against AHL/ECHL guys was too much for him.

Instead of once again trying to blame someone else for his failures he should have thanked the Flames for giving him a chance he didn't deserve, keeping him around when he clearly sucked and left with some class and dignity. Instead in classic Fleury fashion he acted like a little baby, recreate what actually happened and tried to act as though it was him that was wronged. It's ironic he says dumb hockey people when his comments about what he did shows that he has a complete lack of understanding about how hockey teams work and how meaningless his 4 points in the pre-season were compared to how he actually played.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by moon

Conroy looked better in pre-season, plays a much better all round game, is a good guy in the room and isn't a POS. Pretty easy decision over an old, crappy guy with a bad attitude that showed that playing against AHL/ECHL guys was too much for him.

Instead of once again trying to blame someone else for his failures he should have thanked the Flames for giving him a chance he didn't deserve, keeping him around when he clearly sucked and left with some class and dignity. Instead in classic Fleury fashion he acted like a little baby, recreate what actually happened and tried to act as though it was him that was wronged. It's ironic he says dumb hockey people when his comments about what he did shows that he has a complete lack of understanding about how hockey teams work and how meaningless his 4 points in the pre-season were compared to how he actually played.

I can't believe I am actually agreeing with you.

IMO by his comments quoted above Fleury showed that his me first attitude has not changed and he is still only looking out for himself. He might be clean and sober now, but he is still a self serving prick.

[krynski]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Did Fleury commit adultery, kill anyone or commit a terrorist attack?

Or did he just make a few critical comments?

You get the point I'm trying to make, but you're ignoring it for the sake of argument.

[krynski]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I'd be pissed too.

If you spoke out against your former employer publicly if you were ticked like that, would you expect them to honor you?

[doctajones428]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

No one deserves a free pass for acting like a jerk. Not Theo, not you, not me, no one. It was his choice to act like an ass and if that keeps his number out of the rafters so be it.

Then Vernon should have his torn out of the rafters. Agreed?

[cowtown75]

Theo was my all time favorite Flame. I think there is too much talk about his off-ice antics or issues. At the end of the day, he was a hockey player who gave all his blood, sweat and tears for this Flames organization and for all the fans for 11 years every single damn time he was on the ice and there hasn't been anyone on this team like that ever since he left and would of been the all-time leader in scoring for the club if he wasn't traded.

There's a lot of garbage comments on here in regards to his personal life/issues and that because of those, his # shouldn't be retired- It should be, no question. There's no question in my mind he should of got a better shake in '09. The man can score, older legs or not. He was a very special player with so much hockey skill and IQ that it's not something you can teach- he just had "it" it was a natural gift and his bad past and experiences helped make the 50 goal scorer he was at friggin 5'6. He was an emotional player, competitor, and it made him very successful on the ice. The smallest player to hit 1,000 points ever and did it despite all odds. The guy was all heart and if he was 6'4 like Lemieux would of probably re-wrote some NHL records. Who the hell cares what he did off the ice, it's what he did on the ice, for the fans, his team, and the memmories he gave everyone helping his team win and the excitement he created is why his number should be up there without question.

[dammage79]

I haven't read the entire thread. But if I had my way I would Honor Fleury the same way they honored McInnis. The forever a Flame induction. I loved that little ball of hate but I do not think his tenure in Calgary deserves a number retiring. But I fully understand why people would want his number retired and wouldn't make any strong argument against those who believe so.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by krynski

You get the point I'm trying to make, but you're ignoring it for the sake of argument.

No, I see your point. I just do not think its relevent. Fleury didn't do anything criminally or ethically wrong. What he's guilty of is being passionate and honest... and being too forward with his opinions, which is not a crime, is the black mark on him getting his # retired.

People talk about him being a jerk ... I don't see it. Maybe he might not be so wise about what to take public and what not to, Fleury has done more for Calgary then 99% of the population. And more then most Calgary Flames. Compare him versus Iginla, while Iginla did a lot, when Iginla seemed to cut ties with the community (and nothing wrong with that). Fleury came back, and when the flood hit, he was doing a ton to help out the community. That gives him a green check mark in the "contributing to community" Calgary (again, note, nothing against Iginla here, just to compare).

So, in the end, the only thing Fleury has going against him is... being too passionate.

[cowtown75]

Originally Posted by dammage79

I haven't read the entire thread. But if I had my way I would Honor Fleury the same way they honored McInnis. The forever a Flame induction. I loved that little ball of hate but I do not think his tenure in Calgary deserves a number retiring. But I fully understand why people would want his number retired and wouldn't make any strong argument against those who believe so.

May I ask why his number doesn't deserve retiring ?

All time Flames PPG leaders- over 10 years:

Fleury- 791 GP, 830 pts- 1.049 ppg reg. playoffs- 66g,62 pts (0.94)
MacInnis- 787 g, 818 pt- 1.039 ppg reg . Playoffs- 95 g, 102 pts (1.07)
Iginla- 1,219 g, 1,095 pt- 0.898 ppg reg. Playoffs- 52 g, 47 pts (0.90)

Games as a Flame leaders:

Iggy- 1,219- overall ppg (reg/playoffs)- 0.899
Fleury- 791- overall (reg/playoffs)- 0.99
MacInnis- 787- overall (reg/playoffs)- 1.05

Lanny MacDonald- (Hanging in the rafters)

492 gp, 406 pts- 3 and a half good seasons out of 7 and a bit- one great season with 66 goals. Overall :
PPG- 0.825 reg season- playoffs- 72 gp, 47 pts- 0.65 ppg

If there should be 2 names hangin in the rafters right now, it should be Fleury and MacInnis (and Mac is a freakin defenceman !!! and put up those points)

Heck, look at Niewendyk- 577 gp, 616 pts (1.06 ppg) reg season and 66 GP, 60 pts (0.90 ppg) in the playoffs isn't even in the rafters.

Iggy will be there too eventually, but, having MacDonald there instead of Fleury/MacInnis there because he was a media darling and an unforgettable face on the downside of his career at the time with empty rafters is a bit of a shame. MacDonald only played 492 games here.

Not having Fleury and MacInnis in the rafters right now is shameful, and this stupid "Flames Forever" crap is unjust and an embarrasement. Fleury- 11 years, MacInnis- 11 years and both contributed to many successful years and a Stanley Cup just like Mr. MacDonald who retired right after and besides that one GWG, wasn't much of a factor for the Flames the last 3 years he played and only played 492 games as a Flame.

It took almost 13 years for Iggy to get to the point totals it took Fleury 10.5 years. Fleury was a more prolific scorer and he was 5 foot 6.

And if Stan freakin Smyl is hanging in the rafters as a retired jersey in Van, well, I don't know...

I think the Flames should retire those who made the team successful and put in their time doing so entertaining the fans for years- not doing it because they were traded is ######ed. That being said, Vernon was traded and made his way back to Calgary for a one goodbye season- that's why he is up there too. Guess you have to retire here to be recognized- so, Fleury anyone ?

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by moon

Conroy looked better in pre-season, plays a much better all round game, is a good guy in the room and isn't a POS. Pretty easy decision over an old, crappy guy with a bad attitude that showed that playing against AHL/ECHL guys was too much for him.

Instead of once again trying to blame someone else for his failures he should have thanked the Flames for giving him a chance he didn't deserve, keeping him around when he clearly sucked and left with some class and dignity. Instead in classic Fleury fashion he acted like a little baby, recreate what actually happened and tried to act as though it was him that was wronged. It's ironic he says dumb hockey people when his comments about what he did shows that he has a complete lack of understanding about how hockey teams work and how meaningless his 4 points in the pre-season were compared to how he actually played.

What an asinine post. You just called Theo a piece of ####? Care to explain why?

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by cowtown75

May I ask why his number doesn't deserve retiring ?

Just my preference. First seven years of Fleury's tenure was apart of some incredibly good teams. 88-89 to 94-95 he only led the team in scoring twice and once only by one point to McInnis. So for me if McInnis's number isn't hanging in the Rafters (which it should be) then why does Fleurys? Like I said, I am not going to argue with whoever thinks he should as I understand why. I just don't think his career as a Flame superceded McInnis's.
Being honored with the likes of McInnis and potentially Niewy at some point in the whole forever a Flames thing, is stellar recognition for his services as a Flame.

Also. I've never been a major fan of retiring numbers anyways. Why should this generation not be able to buy a #18 Canadiens Jersey for their favorite player today? Yeah there are some numbers that should be retired. But that honor should stand for the truly all time greats of the game.

I should also clarify my preference is in no way swayed by Fleury's life outside of Hockey.

[cowtown75]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Just my preference. First seven years of Fleury's tenure was apart of some incredibly good teams. 88-89 to 94-95 he only led the team in scoring twice and once only by one point to McInnis. So for me if McInnis's number isn't hanging in the Rafters (which it should be) then why does Fleurys? Like I said, I am not going to argue with whoever thinks he should as I understand why. I just don't think his career as a Flame superceded McInnis's.
Being honored with the likes of McInnis and potentially Niewy at some point in the whole forever a Flames thing, is stellar recognition for his services as a Flame.

Also. I've never been a major fan of retiring numbers anyways. Why should this generation not be able to buy a #18 Canadiens Jersey for their favorite player today? Yeah there are some numbers that should be retired. But that honor should stand for the truly all time greats of the game.

I should also clarify my preference is in no way swayed by Fleury's life outside of Hockey.

At 5'6 and over 1,000 pts against all odds, I considerer Fleury an all time great. I would pick him over Adam Oates in the HHoF anyday. I also consider Al MacInnis and all time great. I guess we can agree to disagree.

Fleury had a 1.00 ppg overall over a 1,000 games played with a 1.02 ppg over his playoff career- not too shabby.

Al MacInnis is also a hall of famer for obvious reasons (102 pts with Calgary) Two hall of famers not hanging from our rafters.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by doctajones428

Then Vernon should have his torn out of the rafters. Agreed?

I would have no problem with that. I think we all know his number is retired because he is a local boy.

But I also don't recall an instance where Vernon put down the Flames franchise either, from all I have ever heard he was just a jerk away from the game.

Where as Theo has out the Flames down on at least a couple occasions and was even given an opportunity to make it right. But he still ran his mouth, I am confident that if he had been gracious in the last opportunity he was given that his number would be in the rafters.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Just my preference. First seven years of Fleury's tenure was apart of some incredibly good teams. 88-89 to 94-95 he only led the team in scoring twice and once only by one point to McInnis. So for me if McInnis's number isn't hanging in the Rafters (which it should be) then why does Fleurys? Like I said, I am not going to argue with whoever thinks he should as I understand why. I just don't think his career as a Flame superceded McInnis's.
Being honored with the likes of McInnis and potentially Niewy at some point in the whole forever a Flames thing, is stellar recognition for his services as a Flame.

Also. I've never been a major fan of retiring numbers anyways. Why should this generation not be able to buy a #18 Canadiens Jersey for their favorite player today? Yeah there are some numbers that should be retired. But that honor should stand for the truly all time greats of the game.

I should also clarify my preference is in no way swayed by Fleury's life outside of Hockey.

... is a joke. Just scrap the damn thing. Its embarrassing.

[cowtown75]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

... is a joke. Just scrap the damn thing. Its embarrassing.

No kidding hey- Puts us up there with Van's ring of honor where they got Thomas Gradin as their inductee.

[cowtown75]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I would have no problem with that. I think we all know his number is retired because he is a local boy.

But I also don't recall an instance where Vernon put down the Flames franchise either, from all I have ever heard he was just a jerk away from the game.

Where as Theo has out the Flames down on at least a couple occasions and was even given an opportunity to make it right. But he still ran his mouth, I am confident that if he had been gracious in the last opportunity he was given that his number would be in the rafters.

Theo also had another interview after his inital dissapointment (erased first statement) saying thank you to the Flames for a shot and he is at peace to retire now. The man is a competitor, I wouldn't expect any less of him to voice his dissapointment. He also put on a good show for the fans (especially his last penalty shot). And where has Theo outted the Flames at least a couple of times ? Over sensitive dudes on here, it's not Big Brother, it's real life and hockey - Don Cherry must make some of you turn in your sleep at night. Keep the facts on the ice, not off of it.