Unless you're a cop who doesn't want to make knife wielding friends.
Still waiting for a valid course of action that should have been followed had he not dropped the knife?
Why are you still waiting for that? I haven't at any point posited upon what the police should have done had the situation persisted. I've actually expressly said that I don't know what the protocol is for calling in negotiators etc. I do know what the protocol is for use of lethal force though, and it's not "he has a knife and won't drop it so we can kill him". If you think that's what it should be then fine, but don't sit there and tell me that the evidence we've seen so far lives up to the standard when you can't even tell me what the standard is.
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The correct procedure is to get within 5 feet, attempt to deploy your taser, and later succumb to your stab injuries in hospital. Yeah sometimes following procedure doesn't always work out too well, does it. Had this transpired would you say, "maybe the cop should have shot him?" Or rather, "that's the risk he took when he became a cop?"
Hopefully this officer is cleared for this.
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If I am the cop in that street car, and there is some lunatic thug waiving a knife at me, I shoot him and don't think twice about it.
Yeesh people act like it's the cops job to give this guy a hug and a blanket and help him calm down. You don't take chances when someone has a knife and they are within lunging distance of you.
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If I am the cop in that street car, and there is some lunatic thug waiving a knife at me, I shoot him and don't think twice about it.
Yeesh people act like it's the cops job to give this guy a hug and a blanket and help him calm down. You don't take chances when someone has a knife and they are within lunging distance of you.
He wasn't within lunging distance of him... That's the whole point. Cop wasn't on the street car.
It's also not the cops job to shoot people simply cause they're not listening to them.
The officer that shot is the only one that seemed to feel immediately threatened. The one female officer appears to come closer to the suspect than the gun touting cops.
Very strange situation and very puzzling why the cop went so trigger happy.
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Originally Posted by Yakbutter
If I am the cop in that street car...
No cop was in the bus.
Last edited by zamler; 07-30-2013 at 06:41 PM.
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I'd be alive, maybe suspended with pay while my name is cleared. Unlike the lot of you with your "how can anyone possibly dislike law enforcement" attitudes getting sliced to pieces while you fumble with your taser prongs.
i'd be alive, maybe suspended with pay while my name is cleared. Unlike the lot of you with your "how can anyone possibly dislike law enforcement" attitudes getting sliced to pieces while you fumble with your taser prongs.
Well these images from the security cam video show he was on the ground when the 6 additional shots were fired.
Additionally the officer's name has been revealed, and amazingly for a six-year veteran he was making $106,000 a year as he appeared on Ontario's "Sunshine List" of public sector employees making over $100,000
i'd be alive, maybe suspended with pay while my name is cleared. Unlike the lot of you with your "how can anyone possibly dislike law enforcement" attitudes getting sliced to pieces while you fumble with your taser prongs.
'merica
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I'd be alive, maybe suspended with pay while my name is cleared. Unlike the lot of you with your "how can anyone possibly dislike law enforcement" attitudes getting sliced to pieces while you fumble with your taser prongs.
So the only options are shoot him 9 times or taser him and get stabbed? Must be a short section in the police manual.
Well these images from the security cam video show he was on the ground when the 6 additional shots were fired.
Look at the distance he'd have to cover to lunge at the cop. Not only that, he only has one narrow door to exit through and look where his body ended up. He obviously didn't charge very fast or far... He didn't even make it to the stairs! You're telling me that he was a real threat to a cop, with his gun already drawn, aimed and with his finger on the trigger?
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So has there been any attempt to defend why the guy was tazered well after being shot? Because that's honestly the most troubling thing to me; I can accept that there may have been circumstances that made this situation more urgently dangerous than it appears in the video; I can accept that in the very high-stress job of policing, maybe this one cop just screwed up. Tragic, but it happens. But right now the only reason for the tazering seems to be to cover their own tracks. Attempting to doctor crime scene evidence (if that's what happened) is to me a less excusable action than any heat-of-the-moment overreaction.
Well in this case, why would the officers try and doctor evidence? With so many people surrounding the streetcar they had to know someone was filming the incident, and that the video would see the light of immediately after the fact. So I just don't see why they would bother making it look like they had tried to taze the guy first when they had to of known people would see a video. Furthermore, it's not like only 2 or 3 officers were at the scene, and they could build a case that the tazer was ineffective. There's no chance they could have built a cover-up story with so many other officers seeing something different. Sure a few officers might back up the story, but 8 or 9 backing the same lie? I sincerely doubt it.
As to why he was tazered after the fact? Who really knows, maybe just chalk it up to the same poor police work, or perhaps they believed some of the shots missed and he was still a threat. I don't think they were automatically planning a coverup though, that scenario just doesn't add up.
Last edited by trackercowe; 07-30-2013 at 08:11 PM.
Look at the distance he'd have to cover to lunge at the cop. Not only that, he only has one narrow door to exit through and look where his body ended up. He obviously didn't charge very fast or far... He didn't even make it to the stairs! You're telling me that he was a real threat to a cop, with his gun already drawn, aimed and with his finger on the trigger?
With the new audio and whatnot, it's honestly sounding like a cop who didn't like being talked back to and for no reason being called a ####, and he got itchy to pull that trigger. I'm not opposed to the police shooting weapons. I didn't think this deserved it at that point. Toronto simply has some real d-bags on the force. As a community, if we let police get away with being trigger happy, it becomes a slippery slope. They should be scrutinized anytime that gun comes out of their holster.
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If I am the cop in that street car, and there is some lunatic thug waiving a knife at me, I shoot him and don't think twice about it.
Yeesh people act like it's the cops job to give this guy a hug and a blanket and help him calm down. You don't take chances when someone has a knife and they are within lunging distance of you.
But why are the cops even on the bus. Wait him out, get a negotiator, use tear gas. Why put yourself at risk in a position to be attacked by a guy weilding a knife forcing you to shoot him.
To me shooting wasnt the issue, getting into the situation where te officer felt the need to shoot was problem
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The correct procedure is to get within 5 feet, attempt to deploy your taser, and later succumb to your stab injuries in hospital. Yeah sometimes following procedure doesn't always work out too well, does it. Had this transpired would you say, "maybe the cop should have shot him?" Or rather, "that's the risk he took when he became a cop?"
Hopefully this officer is cleared for this.
What's wrong with you? Are you so incapable of crafting an argument that you have to resort to complete fabrication? You've not only made up a completely ridiculous "procedure" you've done it as part of an argument that you started by saying that he met the legal standard, one you don't even know.
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When you do a signature and don't attribute it to anyone, it's yours. - Vulcan
If I am the cop in that street car, and there is some lunatic thug waiving a knife at me, I shoot him and don't think twice about it.
Yeesh people act like it's the cops job to give this guy a hug and a blanket and help him calm down. You don't take chances when someone has a knife and they are within lunging distance of you.
Good thing the cop wasn't in the street car.
__________________
When you do a signature and don't attribute it to anyone, it's yours. - Vulcan
The cop was "ready" for a potential knife attack and already had his gun unholstered and and pointed at the guy. He was also surrounded by a ton of other cops and the guy was on a freaking bus. It takes a fraction of a second to pull a trigger so I'm not buying the whole "cover 20 feet before the officer could fire" thing.
Not sure if it's true, but there were a couple of interesting follow up posts by the officer on that subject:
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- We actually shoot slower from the ready position than from holstered.
I'm curious about this. I assume that it's becuase there would be more variables in a situation where weapons are already drawn, as opposed to being immediately presented with a situation requiring the use of deadly force?
I think it comes down to both that and our training being predominantly reactionary, as most situations are going to present themselves as an immediate life or death threat as opposed to this. We become really really good at drawing and shooting, but we don't train as much from ready as that situation has so many other things going on.
It's also due in part to all of the weird physiological responses humans going through in stressful moments, the science of which I can't possibly explain!
I'll see what I can dig up on it.. it may go back to my recruit training materials and other stuff. There is some other interesting information that books like "On Killing" and "On Combat" may touch on, but I can't recall right now.
I'm not sure about the accuracy of this though, since the officer in question really isn't too sure either.
