Witnesses say Sammy Yatim was alone on the 505 Dundas streetcar near Trinity Bellwoods Park when he was shot just after midnight ET Saturday morning. He had pulled a knife and ordered everybody off the streetcar, witnesses say.
The video shows the stopped streetcar at a distance, with multiple police officers nearby, at least one with his hands raised to shoulder height. Nine gunshots are heard within 13 seconds.
ridiculous ...
Last edited by qiang; 07-30-2013 at 03:09 AM.
Reason: change
The abundantly available video evidence is as disturbing to listen to as it is to watch.
But you know it will be by a lot people.
“You’re a f------ p---y.” These are believed to be the final words of 18-year-old Sammy Yatim as he was shot from the gun of at least one Toronto Police officer.
“Drop the knife” may have been the very last words he heard before being shot to death.
Quote:
“There were also eight to 11 cops at the front door at one point,” said Grupp.
“Not sure of the threat the victim posed to the public.”
But Grupp did make this observation.
“The (several) ‘you’re a f------ p---y’ taunts came shortly before the first three shots,” he said. “If public safety was a concern, then there were no officers focused on containing the scene and moving away bystanders until after the shooting.
“Little effort was made to secure the rear door.”
The actions, anxiousness — in some cases the lack of — is also noteworthy.
Quote:
At “12:04 a.m. (Saturday) one or more Toronto Police officers fire three shots, then a pause, followed by another burst of six shots,” Grupp said. “I hear what I believe is a Taser fired. Shortly thereafter, one or two officers board the streetcar and one officer runs on the back.”
But it was a female officer, standing next to what is believed to be the shooting officer, that has caught the eye of many.
“A female officer stands beside the subject officer with her arms folded in front of her, with no weapon drawn and no sign of any concern for her safety,” notes crime specialist Ross McLean, a former Toronto copper. “At the five-second mark, the suspect appears to raise both his arms, in a surrender-type movement, then as another officer runs around the back of the streetcar he holds the knife up for him to see.”
Quote:
Why was the area not more shut down with such a risk imminent?
“Several pedestrians and cyclists continue to pass through the scene from east to west,” said Grupp. “Several cars pass by the scene from west to east on Dundas.”
McLean notices two other interesting factors.
One is it appears the first three police bullets rang out while the suspect was standing. The next six when he appears to be down on the ground or on his knees.
“The final six shots, it appears the officer has now levelled the gun, as opposed to the angled up position of his arm previously, possibly indicating the final shots were fired at the suspect on the floor of the streetcar,” said McLean.
“Just 19 seconds later a police officer is seen running into the picture quickly carrying what appears to be a Taser in his hands, he moves to the first stair of the streetcar, and at 1:28 of the video, apparently deploys the Taser, 38 seconds after the final shot.
“The officer’s arm angle would appear to show he was deploying it on the suspect on the floor of the streetcar.”
Meanwhile, look at the Grupp video closely: You can see officers appear to be pulling the shooter officer away. Once the nine gunshots have stopped, “he is surrounded by officers who grab him and pull him back sharply (while) he appears to be pointing his gun at the suspect.” It’s a strange scene.
It is easy for us to slowly analyze the situation from afar while our heart rates are not approaching 200 bpm which would allow the more primitive parts of the brain to override our ability to make sound decisions. I do not think an angry anti-police demonstration is necessary. (unless they do nothing as a result of this)
The lesson to be learned here is that police departments need to review how well they train police officers to deescalate the situation... and how important that is. I would think that the officer who killed the teen must have had that training. Since he was unable to call upon that training in that situation, he would not be fit to be in the police force.
Seems odd to me, to be sure. In the 'enhanced' one, the guy does seem to be moving forward, but even then, not by much. The only argument I can see them making is that maybe they feared that the guy would start to leave in the streetcar. Those things can't be too tricky to drive. I imagine (though I don't know for sure) that they are much like a c-train which is pretty straightforward. Will be interesting to see what comes of this.
Tasers are not an effective method of neutralizing a threat, I'll patiently wait for Canuck-Hater to list the plenty of non-lethal options you have when a kid is allegedly coming at you with a knife. The officer is well within his rights to neutralize the threat.
I agree that this is like the Trayvon case in that people have beef with the police officer, instead of with the law that authorizes him to shoot.
That's simply not true. There were plenty of members there with firearms, clearly at least one had a taser. The police officer with the taser had plenty of lethal over watch in case the kid charged him while he tries to deploy the taser. As far as why police still carry guns, well Tasers aren't guaranteed to work every single time and aren't appropriate for a potentially lethal confrontation if the police officer is alone.
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Seems odd to me, to be sure. In the 'enhanced' one, the guy does seem to be moving forward, but even then, not by much. The only argument I can see them making is that maybe they feared that the guy would start to leave in the streetcar. Those things can't be too tricky to drive. I imagine (though I don't know for sure) that they are much like a c-train which is pretty straightforward. Will be interesting to see what comes of this.
A poster previously mentioned that they could have feared he was going to throw the knife. I don't know why they wouldn't have backed off then. I hate playing armchair quarterback because its frankly not fair however the optics of this do not look good. If he was going to throw the knife or charge the officer then I can understand the first three rounds fired. The following six rounds fired, when the suspect appeared to be prone (police officer lowered the level of his pistol) is what really concerns me. I frankly do not see how those rounds fired could be justified.
Quote:
The abundantly available video evidence is as disturbing to listen to as it is to watch.
But you know it will be by a lot people.
“You’re a f------ p---y.” These are believed to be the final words of 18-year-old Sammy Yatim as he was shot from the gun of at least one Toronto Police officer.
“Drop the knife” may have been the very last words he heard before being shot to death.
Could be true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis
Quote:
“There were also eight to 11 cops at the front door at one point,” said Grupp.
“Not sure of the threat the victim posed to the public.”
But Grupp did make this observation.
“The (several) ‘you’re a f------ p---y’ taunts came shortly before the first three shots,” he said. “If public safety was a concern, then there were no officers focused on containing the scene and moving away bystanders until after the shooting.
“Little effort was made to secure the rear door.”
The actions, anxiousness — in some cases the lack of — is also noteworthy.
Disagree with all of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis
Quote:
At “12:04 a.m. (Saturday) one or more Toronto Police officers fire three shots, then a pause, followed by another burst of six shots,” Grupp said. “I hear what I believe is a Taser fired. Shortly thereafter, one or two officers board the streetcar and one officer runs on the back.”
But it was a female officer, standing next to what is believed to be the shooting officer, that has caught the eye of many.
“A female officer stands beside the subject officer with her arms folded in front of her, with no weapon drawn and no sign of any concern for her safety,” notes crime specialist Ross McLean, a former Toronto copper. “At the five-second mark, the suspect appears to raise both his arms, in a surrender-type movement, then as another officer runs around the back of the streetcar he holds the knife up for him to see.”
Disagree with that as well. The 'female' officer might have been readying her cuffs or giving direction to other officers who had their eyes on the guy with the knife. She appears to be communicating with someone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis
Quote:
Why was the area not more shut down with such a risk imminent?
“Several pedestrians and cyclists continue to pass through the scene from east to west,” said Grupp. “Several cars pass by the scene from west to east on Dundas.”
McLean notices two other interesting factors.
One is it appears the first three police bullets rang out while the suspect was standing. The next six when he appears to be down on the ground or on his knees.
“The final six shots, it appears the officer has now levelled the gun, as opposed to the angled up position of his arm previously, possibly indicating the final shots were fired at the suspect on the floor of the streetcar,” said McLean.
“Just 19 seconds later a police officer is seen running into the picture quickly carrying what appears to be a Taser in his hands, he moves to the first stair of the streetcar, and at 1:28 of the video, apparently deploys the Taser, 38 seconds after the final shot.
“The officer’s arm angle would appear to show he was deploying it on the suspect on the floor of the streetcar.”
Meanwhile, look at the Grupp video closely: You can see officers appear to be pulling the shooter officer away. Once the nine gunshots have stopped, “he is surrounded by officers who grab him and pull him back sharply (while) he appears to be pointing his gun at the suspect.” It’s a strange scene.
Ironically if the cop shot this kid because the kid called him a #####, he really is a #####.
Not sure why you are quoting comments from some other website.
Disagree with that as well. The 'female' officer might have been readying her cuffs or giving direction to other officers who had their eyes on the guy with the knife. She appears to be communicating with someone.
Not sure why you are quoting comments from some other website.
Because thats what I'm doing? Quoting the article? Kinda like the OP quotes an article too. Kinda like a lot of people quote articles around here...
Weird reply, or did you actually not read the article and assumed I was just posting random thoughts?
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Maintaining distance since he was in a streetcar and not an immediate threat. Then if they decided they just had to take him down, using the taser.
Yeah, a cluster of police officers standing around the entrance of the bus probably wasn't the best way to take the situation down a notch.
It never ceases to amaze me how little common sense is applied to situations like this. No one was in immediate danger, they could have backed off to let the guy cool off.
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I mean you could shoot him twice in both legs and he probably lives. 9 times is intent to kill without a doubt. You don't fire 9 times as a warning.
Shoot him in the legs? Are you kidding me? It's not like it was in the movies where people can shoot others with pinpoint accuracy. You aim for the mass not the fringes.
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Yeah, a cluster of police officers standing around the entrance of the bus probably wasn't the best way to take the situation down a notch.
It never ceases to amaze me how little common sense is applied to situations like this. No one was in immediate danger, they could have backed off to let the guy cool off.
Two things that will be extremely difficult to explain justifiably
1) The firing of three shots, a pause, and then six more shots fired. The pause is the key here.
2) The tasering after the fact, both because a)Why wasn't he tased first? And b) Once you've unloaded a whole clip, the kid is probably incapacitated already. Whats the point of the taser?
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Its tough, 9 shots is a bit excessive, police departments are notoriously finicky about every bullet used and being counted for.
I laugh at people who say well shoot him in the leg or in the arm. Pistols aren't the most accurate thing out there at anything over 10 feet, some people play too many video games. The idea with a pistol is to aim at something that blocks out the entire site and more, ie center mass.
There has to be an investigation, if witness reports are to believed there are probably a few cops either out of work or facing the courts.
Outside of the kid yelling "You're a p$ssy" we don't know what was said or shown on the bus, I'm hoping its not a cop who got his feeling hurt and got a hair trigger.
I agree with what's being said, there has to be patience shown for the investigation, and the results have to be open to the public, the most important thing is public trust of the police.
I can't comment on the taser thing without knowing more. For example if the police interpreted the weapon as a ranged weapon instead of a close in weapon then a taser pretty much goes out the window, same goes for something like a bomb threat. Taser's aren't the ideal choice for those type of things.
Sounds like it was a cluster flop (yo Gunnery Sergent Highway TBS), they didn't secure the area properly.
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I mean you could shoot him twice in both legs and he probably lives. 9 times is intent to kill without a doubt. You don't fire 9 times as a warning.
You never fire as a warning. If you're firing you're intent is to hit mass, which is going to do much more than simply wound.
There's nothing in that video to indicate he made a move towards the officer or otherwise created a sufficient threat to warrant lethal force. I'm glad there's video so a bunch of lying cops can't cover for him.
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Two things that will be extremely difficult to explain justifiably
1) The firing of three shots, a pause, and then six more shots fired. The pause is the key here.
2) The tasering after the fact, both because a)Why wasn't he tased first? And b) Once you've unloaded a whole clip, the kid is probably incapacitated already. Whats the point of the taser?
that's why we have to wait for the SIU investigation. We know very little about what happened on the vehicle.
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