It's time to retire #14

[Stay Golden]

Originally Posted by New Era

Those decisions are made by the teams that retired the players, not by those who own and control the Calgary Flames. What happened with those particular players is irrelevant to the discussion of the Calgary Flames. The Flames have made it very clear they are building this team through quality character and quality people. See the non-drafting of Skinkaruk. The honors they bestow on past players will reflect the same belief.



A vendetta? You're making an accusation that there are a group of people that are conspiring against Fleury and depriving him of something rightfully his. What you are forgetting is that the honor is bestowed by the team, and by the owners of that team, not by anyone else. If there is a vendetta against Fleury, and I don't believe there is, it is one of the player's making, based on his behaviors toward the team and owners.

You're going to have to accept the fact that the honor of number retirement is decided by the ownership of the team and all the foot stamping and kicking and screaming, by a very small group of fans of the hockey club, will have little bearing on their decision. They have more insight into what Fleury meant to team, on and off the ice, than the fans do and they will make the right decision for their team. Whatever the outcome is, there are going to be some upset people.

Fleury not only was the greatest player during his era for the Flames statistically he played with tremendous heart and courage battling Crohn's and Colitus disease and alcohol abuse, battling alcoholism and substance abuse as a direct result of coping with being raped as a teenager.

Fleury played with his heart on his sleeve always. He made games that were often mis matches interesting to watch and gave the Flames a chance to win and was always exciting to watch while he was a Flame.
Fleury was a reason fans paid a ticket and went to the Dome to watch an average team.
Fleury was the main draw to the gate for the Flames many of the years he was here.
Fleury is a champion for those that are Small in stature and are told you can't make it as an athlete.
He is champion for victims of Crohn's disease.
He is is a champion for victims of Alcoholism.
He is a champion for victims of substance abuse.
He is a champion for victims of sexual abuse. Correction victims of predatory RAPE.

We as Flames fans and the Flames ownership are fortunate that a small 145lb kid didn't let all his demons and health conditions ruin him 2 years into his career and pack it in. No he fought through it ALL of it and battled that is character.

How many people organization or fans opposed to Fleury having his number not retired would have had their lives unaffected negatively going through all of what Fleury did and not have their lives/careers turn out vastly different.
Fleury statistically was a legend to the Flames and he has done everything charitable he could to make amends for his mistakes.
There are a lot of people throwing stones in glass house when it comes to Fleury and that includes the organization.
The Flames have every right to deny Fleury but I strongly disagree with their stance especially because of Graham James and what Fleury has stood for and fought against since it all has become public.
Fleury should not be scrutinized so harshly by the Flames now that they know the truth behind his self destructive behavior and how he has evolved to become a very charitable community oriented Calgarian.
Personally I think he is a good man and is a voice for many hurt victims.

[jayswin]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Best post in this thread.

[krynski]

Originally Posted by flameswin

You're talking about him like he's a normal person who can change how he is because it isn't ideal. That's ****ing ridiculous.

Retire #14.

He's not a normal person. That's the point. Someone who deserves to be retired should be able to over-come his issues. He's bitter. He a prick. He's condescending, and NO ONE can deny that he thinks the world owes him one. That's what irritates me.

Lots of people have over-come similar situations and become better people. He, however, did not. As an example, if you have a psychopath who consistently defrauds people, you do not excuse his behaviour because he had a tough childhood. It's a personality fault.

It's his personality that holds him back, and he's the only one to blame. That';s the case with Fleury, IMO.

[jayswin]

Also, why are we taking away Fleury's Stanley Cup from his accomplishments because it was a "stacked team"? How many stacked teams have won the cup? The awnser is, lots. Every other player in the league gets credit when the win a cup, so Fluery does, too.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by krynski

Comparing Iginla and Fleury isn't quite fair. They are two different players entirely with two different styles, and two different roles.

Personally, I wouldn't like to see Theo's jersey retired. He had a lack of respect. A lack of respect for his team, a lack of respect to the organization, and a lack of respect for his fans. Hanging up his number in the rafters isn't just about how many points you can put up, it represents the value he was to the team. It was simply lucky he won a cup with Calgary. That team was stacked and didn`t need him.

Yes, his PPG was higher, but hey, even Cheechoo had a decent PPG at one point. There is no doubt that he has changed over the years, but still, he decides to make stupid comments to media. I understand he has had a tough time growing up, but that doesn't mean recognition is warranted. I probably would have been all for retiring his jersey a little while back. When I watched his SO goal, I was elated. I would have accepted his retired jersey right then and there. Then, he didn`t make the cut. Oh well, we can`t all be NHL calibre for our entire lives.

It was his comments about Conroy that reminded me how I thought about him in the past. It was no longer water under the bridge. It was how much he blames his problems on others (and in a lot of ways, narcissism). I understand he had a tough childhood, I bet you a bunch of CP users have had challenging experiences just as bad. It`s not an excuse. I wouldn`t like to see his jersey retired because of his inability to keep it professional. If Fleury beat his kids, would you nominate him for jersey retirement? I wouldn't. Previous experiences don't excuse behaviour. Personality, professionalism, and being a profound and up-standing leader are my requirements for jersey retirement.

When you retire someone, you retire someone who exemplifies the franchise. If you retire Fleury, you tarnish the name that is the Calgary Flames.

Well I don't see Mike Vernon fitting the mold you are speaking about.

Vernon might have been a great Flame at the time, but I can't recall him being out in the community as a leader for the team. In fact, there were times when other Flames were out and about in the community and Vernon was not, because Vernon had been carousing too hard the night before.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by redforever

Well I don't see Mike Vernon fitting the mold you are speaking about.

Vernon might have been a great Flame at the time, but I can't recall him being out in the community as a leader for the team. In fact, there were times when other Flames were out and about in the community and Vernon was not, because Vernon had been carousing too hard the night before.

And he was known to be quite the dick in public at times.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by krynski

He's not a normal person. That's the point. Someone who deserves to be retired should be able to over-come his issues. He's bitter. He a prick. He's condescending, and NO ONE can deny that he thinks the world owes him one. That's what irritates me.

Lots of people have over-come similar situations and become better people. He, however, did not. As an example, if you have a psychopath who consistently defrauds people, you do not excuse his behaviour because he had a tough childhood. It's a personality fault.

It's his personality that holds him back, and he's the only one to blame. That';s the case with Fleury, IMO.

Define "lots of people". "Should be able to over come his issues"? If you have not gone through what he has, or people like him has, you should shut your trap.

As for being a "prick" if that is a reason not to have a banner then the flames should take down Vernon's banner right now. I worked in the golf industry for many years and met a lot of NHL players. I can safely say that Vernon is top of the list on being a "prick". Bertuzzi when he was with the Canucks was a "prick" also. On a good note Iggy, Trevor Linden and Gretzky where at the top of the list for pure class.

[Mr.Coffee]

to me it comes down to:

1) when I think of the greatest Flames ever, he is one of them, and he is more of one than Vernon (to me at least). Therefore logically if Vernon is retired...

2) you'd have to be an idiot to be a rookie and declare #14 as your number. It's unlikely anybody else wears that number out of respect, so just do the right thing. Fleury made your organization a ridiculous amount of money, and really I think it is simply inevitable anyway.

[Inglewood Jack]

The roadblocks to Fleury's number retirement unfortunately might never be lifted, much in the same way as notable exceptions from the Hall of Fame. if you've pissed off or burned bridges with the people who currently make decisions (e.g. selection committee), you're never getting in on their watch. and then by the time that group is gone, the one replacing it might not have followed your career so closely and have any contextual understanding of what you meant to the franchise and the sport. they'll just see your raw numbers (under 500 goals, just barely 1000 points) and figure your career was good but not special enough.

from the sounds of it, Theo doesn't get a banner as long as KK is at the helm and the memory of him lashing out after his comeback attempt are fresh. I just hope whoever is the next president/owner(s) will forgive his transgressions based on what happened to him, and just choose to remember how he electrified the dome for a whole decade.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by krynski

He's not a normal person. That's the point. Someone who deserves to be retired should be able to over-come his issues. He's bitter. He a prick. He's condescending, and NO ONE can deny that he thinks the world owes him one. That's what irritates me.

Lots of people have over-come similar situations and become better people. He, however, did not. As an example, if you have a psychopath who consistently defrauds people, you do not excuse his behaviour because he had a tough childhood. It's a personality fault.

It's his personality that holds him back, and he's the only one to blame. That';s the case with Fleury, IMO.

I get the point your bitter about Theo, but what about your own comments in the bolded part?; Do they not sound bitter, condescending all the while your calling him a pr*** too?

I see Theo a little differently. Sometimes the physical abuse and emotional scars take awhile to come to the surface especially when a person keeps it inside. People who become alcoholics further problem because alcoholism is a sickness which is often used by people to cover the real pain rather than deal with their actual emotions in real life situations. That is why we see Theo becoming more and more frustrated in his later years when he played for the Rangers. It was a lot of pain and frustration coming the surface. Theo acted out on the ice because he couldn't control his emotions anymore, "it hurt too much"! That is why he had to go for treatment. Part of that treatment was first admitting he was an alcoholic, that he was sick and needed help. So while Theo was sexually abused as a child, embarrassed, ashamed, confused and deeply hurt he drank in order to deal with the pain. He did all this while performing at a high standard as hockey player; He did all this in front of millions of people and sooner or later he had to face the fact that he was only human, he was hurting and he needed help. Give the guy some slack and retire his number he deserves it.

[Flash Walken]

Can I also be the first one to say that who the eff cares what Theo was like, especially after the flames. While he was with the team he was the most prolific and important player to the franchise until Iginla and Kipper arrived.

Fleury should be retired and in the hall of fame based on what he did on the ice. He's top 60all time in points.

He has more goals than Doug Gilmore, Pavel Bure, Alex Kovalev, Owen Nolan, Brian Propp. Theo has more assists than Mike Gartner, Glenn Anderson, Alex Kovalev, Paul Kariya, Jarome Iginla, Frank Mahovlich, Martin St. Louis, and Joe Nieuwendyk.

29th all=time playoff points per game, last appearance in the playoffs scoring 17 points in 18 games, losing in the conference final in 7 games to the eventual Cup winning Dallas Stars.

Theo is 49th all-time in Points Per Game. Ahead of Mats Sundin who just got in as a first ballot hall of famer.

All Bolded are Hall of Famers.

Five international appearances for Canada in major tournaments, 1 Olympic Gold Medal as a significant contributor. He was integral in that 2002 Gold Medal.

Theo was never my favourite player, I wasn't terribly broken up when he was traded, but when he kept himself together on the ice, I enjoyed his game. He is not in the upper tier of the hall, but, he is at the top of the list of the next tier. In my opinion, the off-ice issues serve to bolster his hall credentials rather than draw from them, much like his size.

He should be in, The Hall and The Rafters.

[Hockey_Ninja]

As someone who wasn't around in the Theo era i say put his number in the rafters dammit.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by New Era

You think that is going to happen? He violated the league's substance abuse policy numerous times and was even suspended for not following the aftercare program. I wonder if that will prevent him from being voted in?

He also re-entered the program voluntarily and when he met the guidelines of that program, he was re-instated by the league to play in the NHL.

[Buck Murdock]

retiring #14 is a no-brainer, one of the best players in Flames history. Just do it, its long overdue.

Should be in the HHOF as well imo.

[FlameZilla]

Growing up in the late 80s/early 90s Theo was my hero. My dad used to take me to the Dome every couple of months and we'd watch and wait for Theo's next shift. In that shift Theo would change the entire momentum of the game: he'd go into the corners to get the puck, circle in the neutral zone to build up speed and fly down the off-wing and often snipe the top corner. There were 5 or 6 years where he could have played on any team in the league. By the end of his tenure in Calgary he was the Flames.

I was at his 'homecoming' game when he came back with the Avs. I was sat 4 seats from the Avs' players bench. Theo was in a terrible state of mind and responded very poorly to the crowd. He was about 5 feet away from a 15 year-old yours truly and he was cursing and jeering at the crowd. It was pretty shameful behaviour on his part, but some of the crowd were equally shameful back to him. His main jibe at the crowd was that we were all *expletive*s for supporting such a joke of an organisation.

If he was behaving like that to the crowd I can only imagine what his behavior was like through the long protracted contract struggles & trade situation which had inevitably arisen in the financial climate of the NHL at the time. Safe to say that some ownership & management could still have a very sour taste in their mouths from the whole Fleury ordeal.

From a fan's perspective I would like to see #14 up in the rafters but I can understand why an organisation might not want to be associated with his off-ice issues and demons.

[krynski]

I see all your points, I do. I respect them. Ultimately, I believe it ill be retired. He was a leader, but he will never have my respect. To me, he lacks certain character of being a great leader. I don't wish him poorly, I just can't respect anyone that acts in certain disrespectful ways.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Also, why are we taking away Fleury's Stanley Cup from his accomplishments because it was a "stacked team"? How many stacked teams have won the cup? The awnser is, lots. Every other player in the league gets credit when the win a cup, so Fluery does, too.

It's the CP way. Don't like a guy? Demonize him and invent reasons to trash and trivialize everything he accomplished. It's the hallmark of small, bitter people.

Also, lets be honest here. If anyone was "along for the ride" on that team, it was Lanny. Don't see the small, bitter people here trashing #9.

[krynski]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Define "lots of people". "Should be able to over come his issues"? If you have not gone through what he has, or people like him has, you should shut your trap.

As for being a "prick" if that is a reason not to have a banner then the flames should take down Vernon's banner right now. I worked in the golf industry for many years and met a lot of NHL players. I can safely say that Vernon is top of the list on being a "prick". Bertuzzi when he was with the Canucks was a "prick" also. On a good note Iggy, Trevor Linden and Gretzky where at the top of the list for pure class.

a) I don't think a definition is warranted. Look in any dictionary and form the sentence together as they suggest.

b) If he is to be of good character, in some ways, yes, he should not use that as an excuse to be a bitter person. I have met many wonderful people who have encountered very challenging situations, perhaps even more challenging then the ones he faced. It's simply not an excuse. I have met people who have encountered very similar situations as well, very successful people.

c) Don't make this personal. I could provide you with many suggestions, but I will refrain. Telling me to shut my trap in unwarranted. This is a public forum, and I am insulting no one here. Stop taking it personally and redirecting your frustration at others.

[krynski]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

I get the point your bitter about Theo, but what about your own comments in the bolded part?; Do they not sound bitter, condescending all the while your calling him a pr*** too?

Maybe I can not fully deny that I do not respect him more than the average human being. However, my perception of things is that while my "bitterness" and "condescendingness" is directed at him in general, it does not represent my personality as a whole. That is my opinion on a single person, not the entire world.
I feel his "bitterness" and "condescendingness" is directed at absolutely everyone and is all-encompassing.

Since you made these suggestions about me, I have no choice but to conclude that you too are condescending and bitter.
This is a cyclical argument. Just something to ponder. I don't actually think you are condescending and bitter.

[Calgary4LIfe]

This is why Fleury probably won't be retired any time soon. He is quite the polarizing figure in the fanbase, regardless of his accomplishments.

I am firmly in the 'do not retire' camp, as I still remember his 'I don't want to practice' comments in the media, and how he seemed to be kind of selfish on the ice. His admittance of a number of things in his book... the way he left the NHL... His comments towards the Flames in the last few years also put him further away, at least in my eyes. It is a pretty long list of issues there, and there are definitely issues that happened in his life that give an underlying reason for these issues.

You could legitimately make valid arguments for both sides. I just think it won't get done at least for a number of years more, and possibly never. I do think that the Flames need to really retire MacInnis first. He did after all win the Conn Smythe trophy for the Flames when they won the cup, and has been one of the highest scoring defencemen of all time.