A Scientist Debunks The 'Magic' Of Vitamins And Supplements

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

You know what, you are acting like a real prick, I wasn't rude, offensive or being ignorant towards anyone, I went out of my way to actually provide links to articles, offer arguments in favour of both sides and in general have acted quite civil. You on the other hand seem to prefer juvenile snide comments and icons. Seriously did you even read what I had actually posted or were you ready and primed with a smart-ass comment regardless as to what I posted.

You obviously had no idea, and still have no idea, that I was disengaged from the conversation at that point.

The real debate actually ended a long time ago. Honestly, and I don't mean this in a rude way, but you're acting really butthurt about a conversation between two posters - and neither of them were named `Mean Mr. Mustard`.

I'm sorry if you feel that way, but seriously... I think you have deep-rooted sensitivity issues. Calm down. It`s just a message board.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Are we talking about surgeons doing surgery, or GP's being up to date with everything about science?

You're right. I tend to get a little tangential at times. I think with younger GPs, what you gain in state of the art science you lose in experience, and vise versa for older GPs.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Muta

Poorly executed then. It really wasn't that funny. My response was more clever, but I think you missed that..

Do you know anything about humour either? See, most humour comes out of a statement or situation that is unexpected or incongruous, and some dude braggin' how big his unit is on the internet, is - stay with me here - not exactly breaking new comedic ground. That's why your joke is not funny. Nor is it clever, unless by "clever" you mean "any drunk frat-boy could've come up with it, but I happened to be the one there to make it".

I won't claim my joke is knee-slappin' solid gold, but it does actually partake of the "unexpected" quality, so at least there's that going for it. And it shows I can laugh at myself, instead of being part of some kind of lame "brother'n'brother playin' it undercover" act that fools no one, and frankly makes both of you look like you think the whole world is made up of idiots that can't remember the dozens of times you and Ozy have had each other's backs.

Oh, and before you offer some more "hilarious" advice to chill out, or whatever, that isn't funny either. Obvious deflection is obvious - if you could argue your points, you would, but instead you think acting like you don't care anymore is believable. Well, if you actually didn't care, you wouldn't post in the thread. That's real. Which is why this'll be the last thing you hear from me here, at least concerning this off-topic argument with two guys whose schtick only convinces themselves.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by jammies

do you know anything about humour either? See, most humour comes out of a statement or situation that is unexpected or incongruous, and some dude braggin' how big his unit is on the internet, is - stay with me here - not exactly breaking new comedic ground. That's why your joke is not funny. Nor is it clever, unless by "clever" you mean "any drunk frat-boy could've come up with it, but i happened to be the one there to make it".

I won't claim my joke is knee-slappin' solid gold, but it does actually partake of the "unexpected" quality, so at least there's that going for it. And it shows i can laugh at myself, instead of being part of some kind of lame "brother'n'brother playin' it undercover" act that fools no one, and frankly makes both of you look like you think the whole world is made up of idiots that can't remember the dozens of times you and ozy have had each other's backs.

Oh, and before you offer some more "hilarious" advice to chill out, or whatever, that isn't funny either. Obvious deflection is obvious - if you could argue your points, you would, but instead you think acting like you don't care anymore is believable. Well, if you actually didn't care, you wouldn't post in the thread. That's real. Which is why this'll be the last thing you hear from me here, at least concerning this off-topic argument with two guys whose schtick only convinces themselves.

tl;dr

[Ozy_Flame]

Jammies - why do you keep responding to him? He's clearly trolling and you just keep feeding into it. I agree, you need to calm down.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Muta

You obviously had no idea, and still have no idea, that I was disengaged from the conversation at that point.

The real debate actually ended a long time ago. Honestly, and I don't mean this in a rude way, but you're acting really butthurt about a conversation between two posters - and neither of them were named `Mean Mr. Mustard`.

I'm sorry if you feel that way, but seriously... I think you have deep-rooted sensitivity issues. Calm down. It`s just a message board.

Fair enough - I misinterpreted the tone of your comment. Past that yeah, I agree, my post was a definite over-reaction on my part

[photon]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Multivitamins have prevented me from having a cold or flu for damn near three straight years.

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I started taking multivitamins in Fall of 2009. I have not had a cold or flu since; only food poisoning once since then.

Considering the basic time frame of my not getting sick is roughly the same as when I started my vitamin intake, well then I guess I'll chalk it up to a coincidence in my body having phenomenal and timely immune system changes. Nothing to do with the vitamins, right?

Don't mean to pick on you, but just wanted to point out the fallacious reasoning here that is the root of a huge portion of the reason alternative medicine and vitamins and power bands and homeopathy and vaccination causes autism and similar continue to be so pervasive in society.

Our brains have great difficulty abiding ambiguity or accepting the randomness of our world, we have a deep need to assign cause to effect, even when there is no way to know the cause, or even IS no cause.

To say that because of the timing it must be the cause is an actual logical fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc. Or another way to put it is correlation does not equal causation.

The biological processes involved are hugely complex, with thousands if not millions of variables, and the only variable you are measuring is vitamin intake and ignoring the rest, any conclusion based on that is completely invalid.

Not saying it's impossible that the vitamins didn't actually do something in your case, last time my doctor told me to take vitamin D because my blood tests showed it low (and incidentally didn't recommend a multivitamin, that it would have been a "waste"), it's possible you naturally lack in something, but you can't conclude that based on just your experience.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by photon

Don't mean to pick on you, but just wanted to point out the fallacious reasoning here that is the root of a huge portion of the reason alternative medicine and vitamins and power bands and homeopathy and vaccination causes autism and similar continue to be so pervasive in society.

Our brains have great difficulty abiding ambiguity or accepting the randomness of our world, we have a deep need to assign cause to effect, even when there is no way to know the cause, or even IS no cause.

To say that because of the timing it must be the cause is an actual logical fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc. Or another way to put it is correlation does not equal causation.

The biological processes involved are hugely complex, with thousands if not millions of variables, and the only variable you are measuring is vitamin intake and ignoring the rest, any conclusion based on that is completely invalid.

Not saying it's impossible that the vitamins didn't actually do something in your case, last time my doctor told me to take vitamin D because my blood tests showed it low (and incidentally didn't recommend a multivitamin, that it would have been a "waste"), it's possible you naturally lack in something, but you can't conclude that based on just your experience.

Fair enough. Like I said already, I don't really understand the science of it all, but if it's really the vitamin intake, its placebo effects, some complex bodily reaction or the perfect "storm" of body conditions to make me not get a cold or flu for the last few years, then I will take whatever is the cause and run with it.

I wish I had all the answers, but going back to the OP, despite what some say or claim, I will continue to live by the vitamin intake I currently do.

A well balanced and thought provoking post, BTW.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Where exactly in the original article? I read it all and all I see are his claims not his studies.

2 in the original article, studies nothing to do with Paul Offit:

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article....icleid=1104493
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/arti...icleid=1105975

and in the 2nd article, it brings up a whole host of worrying studies as well as delves into the history of vitamin culture. This is the article I would recommend highly to read.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/ar...ements/277947/

[Muta]

thanks fotze, appreciate those comments... its not really a matter of who won and lost anyways. I don't remember what we were arguing about anyways because it was so ridiculous, and I phased myself out sarcastically a long time ago from this conversation. Difference is, jammies et al couldn't decipher that at all. I've actually held the trump card since very early on, but I guess it wasn't that visible to him.

Plus, with posters like jammies resorting to making weird and creepy comments about this Ozy bloke being brothers and that's his only line of defense... I'm not sure what to say at that point but just to laugh at him. I've never met this Ozy dude in my life. Atleast I don't have to go there.


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[Thor]

I wish people wouldn't take these discussions/debates so personally, just because we don't agree does not mean we have to be dicks about it.

[MelBridgeman]

All those smokers who will told to stock up on vitamins have now been vindicated!

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Muta

I've never met this Ozy dude in my life. Atleast I don't have to go there.


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Not that it relates to this thread but from the "which poster have you met in real life thread"

Originally Posted by Muta

Let's see...

Ozy_Flame
Agemmemon (sp?)
Firefly
Mango
ekhudson[knife]Ozy_Flame

That's it for me!

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Peanut

It's like a dick-measuring contest in a vitamins thread.

A friend of mine asked if he could purchase Extenz in the vitamin aisle? anyone know?

[Erick Estrada]

Okay so we are on to page 10 now and what's the consensus? Are vitamins good or bad?

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Okay so we are on to page 10 now and what's the consensus? Are vitamins good or bad?

Everything in moderation? If you're using vitamin suppliments to get yourself to the daily recommended intake, I can't really see an issue. But if you're pumping yourself with unnecessary quantities, I can't see the benefit and it may be harmful.

I AM NOT A SCIENTIST. Just a guy who pops a couple vitamin C's when I have a cold and maybe a B12 if I'm feeling sluggish. but really haven't been on any specific vitamin regiment since I was a kid and my mom made me take them. I seem to be trucking along ok.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Okay so we are on to page 10 now and what's the consensus? Are vitamins good or bad?

My take, multivitamins seem to be not a good idea. Having your doctor do your blood work to see if there is something your lacking and then supplementing that is fine.

Taking mega doses of vitamin C because of the longstanding myth of it being a cure all, is a bad idea, goes for all vitamins.

I think the message is take caution when taking vitamins, most people do not need them, especially be careful with high dose, seems to be ZERO cases where this is a good idea in the research.

The only thing I've ever personally taken is fish oil pills, its this long standing Icelandic obsession with doing that. At this point I don't see much reason to do even that, I eat fish and my doctor says I have no deficiencies.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by jammies

Did your "help me bro!" wristband suddenly start yelping?

He probably hears him typing from the top bunk.

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

nor would I expect 100% agreement between doctors on every topic.

You should hear these guys cut each other down at these conferences. It doesn't alway happen but it can get nasty sometimes. The language is civil but the intent is very clear. If you understand what's going on, it can be uncomfortable.

[flamesfever]

The problem I see with many people is they develop bad eating habits...a lot junk food, coffee intake, etc., and don't get well balanced food over an extended period. In this respect, I believe it's important for everyone to have routine (once a year) medical checkups by their GP which include blood tests to determine if they are deficient in certain vitamins, minerals etc.

EDIT: I believe it's important to have routine (once a year) medical checkups by their GP which includes blood tests to determine if they would benefit by taking vitamin / mineral supplements.