Black teen shot and killed by neighborhood watch in Orlando gated community

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The character assassination of Martin by some is way over the top.

Are you serious? The character assassination of Martin? I have followed this thread fairly closely and I don't recall that happening, unless I missed it.

It is unreal how many people have bashed Zimmerman, the defense and the police (in this thread and all over). Zimmerman has to watch every step he takes for the rest of his life due to character assassination and bounties on his head.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

Do you live in the US?

I don't currently. I did for a year and have spent an awful lot of time there (albeit in the Boston/New York area).

I am not trying to be antagonistic BBF as, in my experience, you are a very respectful poster. But I'd like to know why you think Obama is actively or carelessly trying to drum up racial tensions if, in fact, that is your position.

I answered your question (though I don't know why one needs to live in the US to ask someone to explain their position). Maybe you can answer mine.

[BigBrodieFan]

Originally Posted by fatso

I don't currently. I did for a year and have spent an awful lot of time there (albeit in the Boston/New York area).

I am not trying to be antagonistic BBF as, in my experience, you are a very respectful poster. But I'd like to know why you think Obama is actively or carelessly trying to drum up racial tensions if, in fact, that is your position.

I answered your question (though I don't know why one needs to live in the US to ask someone to explain their position). Maybe you can answer mine.

You seem like a very smart person, and you are probably have the ability to interpret comments made by POTUS rationally. I am too, and I know what you are trying to say- you believe I am misinterpreting Obama's comments to be racist comments against white people, and that I perceive that he is stating that our justice system wasn't effective.

Just FYI, I have read Obama's comments several times. Whatever his final comments are, he starts out with talking about how people get nervous around black men/lock doors/hold purses tighter/this situation may not have happened to a white kid. Then he goes on to say that law enforcement has to work to end this racial profiling, etc, but things are 'getting better.'

Let me tell you what Americans heard. And hey, I am just being honest, and I am judging this by the people I associate and work with every day. I can give you countless examples.

They heard this: 'President Obama thinks Zimmerman should have been guilty and therefore he loves black people and hates white people.'

You and I might be able to rationally conclude that Obama didn't mean to express this opinion, but in fact- that's what the PERCEPTION was. And, quite frankly, I've lived here for over 15 years and when I was here for the first 3, 4 years I probably would have been making your same arguments. However, I KNOW that it's not WHAT political figures say, it's how what they say is perceived. It's my opinion, that Obama has directly stirred the pot- and that opinion is based on exactly what I hear from the people I associate with daily. He knows what he's doing, and he counts on people like you, (rational people), to defend his statements and interpret them literally. However, politicians rely on the fact that they are more articulate and much more intelligent than the 'general public.' He knew damn well how his comments would be perceived. I mean, Jesus Christ, he knew about the violent riots in LA and other protests and incidents all across the States. His comments added fuel to the fire, regardless how they were 'meant.'

I don't have any suggestions on how to solve the racial tensions in the US, but I do know that they aren't going to get better by the President of the United States talking about Trayvon Martin being a victim- when the person who was found innocent of all charges against him was deemed not guilty by a jury.

Sad but true. I am not trying to be at all disrespectful nor sarcastic, I am simply telling it like it is here in the US.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by FlamingLonghorn

So you don't believe his family member who said he molested her? If that part is true, whatever anyone else is saying about him is hardly character assassination as child molester is pretty much the lowest point in humanity.

I looked into this, and the only source I could find (everything tracked back to a single article) was an article on "Black America Web" by an alleged family member. Doesn't seem like the best of sources seeing as it started originating about 4-5 days ago. We'll see what comes of it. If it's true, yeah, Zimmerman's assassinated his own character.

Doesn't change my opinion about the verdict on the Martin/Zimmerman case, though.

[CaptainCrunch]

To be honest I agree with BBF in a way on the Obama thing. I think he set out to do the right thing, and do the right thing, but the result is the wrong result.

All he had to say was that agree or not with the verdict, the trial was executed in the best traditions of the U.S. court system, the jury carefully reviewed it and came back with a not verdict plea. And its time to move on and start the healing of both sides of this issue.

Instead his words came across as polarizing the racial issue, and from the reading I've done the interpretation is that he believe that the court made the wrong decision.

Personally and especially since the Department of Justice is looking at a Civil Rights charge (which I doubt will ever come) that Obama by making his statement was apply inappropriate command influence. Just like the worry when Obama came out with the whole Trayvan could have been my son speech that there was potential of poisoning potential jurors.

[transplant99]

Yeah I have to agree with you CC....those remarks do come off as inflammatory, though i sincerely doubt he had any intention of that being the case.

I think one large part of his comments are being ignored and really shouldnt be, simply because its the reality of things.

"As difficult and challenging as this whole episode has been for a lot of people, I don't want us to lose sight that things are getting better," the president concluded, making a reference to his daughters' generation.

"It doesn't mean we're in a post-racial society. It doesn't mean that racism is eliminated," he said. "But, you know, when I talk to Malia and Sasha and I listen to their friends and I see them interact, they're better than we are. They're better than we were on these issues. And that's true in every community that I've visited all across the country."

Things arent fixed...but they are so much better than they once were and they are moving in the right direction. That's the reality of the way change works. It takes time.

[RougeUnderoos]

Holy #### holy #### holy ####!!!!!2

I just saw a suspicious looking character walking down the alley! A native guy. Big. Ponytail. Black track pants, a shirt with skulls on it, and he's got a bottle of lemonade. There have been break-ins recently around here.

I'm taking a steak knife and I'm going to follow him and ask him what he's up to.

I'm well within my rights to do this and this is a good idea.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by RyZ

As someone who didn't follow this case at all and knows very little about it, I must say that it is hard to take Trayvons side just because of the people who are already on that side. The top 20 most assinine posts in this thread are all emotional Trayvon supporters that aren't even discussing the topic(s) at hand, just ####ting up the thread with the same alleged and hypothetical crap over and over again.

It's like those anti abortion people holding up the grotesque signs on MacLoed Tr. Even if you identify with the cause, you would never want to be seen as being in support of those embarassing people and how they are trying to get the message across.

That's great and everything but mikeytheredneck posted in support of Zimmerman in this thread.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Holy #### holy #### holy ####!!!!!2

I just saw a suspicious looking character walking down the alley! A native guy. Big. Ponytail. Black track pants, a shirt with skulls on it, and he's got a bottle of lemonade. There have been break-ins recently around here.

I'm taking a steak knife and I'm going to follow him and ask him what he's up to.

I'm well within my rights to do this and this is a good idea.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

Lame. Usually you are more clever.

[BigBrodieFan]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yeah I have to agree with you CC....those remarks do come off as inflammatory, though i sincerely doubt he had any intention of that being the case.

I think one large part of his comments are being ignored and really shouldnt be, simply because its the reality of things.



Things arent fixed...but they are so much better than they once were and they are moving in the right direction. That's the reality of the way change works. It takes time.

Honestly, I am glad for his daughters and their friends.

But I want do want to make one comment here on things getting better, something that people don't hear about much.

I have a bi-racial family, my oldest step son (my kids' half brother) is Korean, and I've had some iisues over the years with people asking me what colour he is and what colour my husband is, but nothing I couldn't shrug off as ignorance. Most people think ask me if he's Mexican or Chinese. Some kids used to tease him in school but he has such a great sense of humour he rolled with it and didn't make it an issue. They called him 'Chang' and or 'Beaner' but he never once got upset about it. I never really gave it too much thought.

Now, my middle son is white. I've talked about him being an athlete on these boards and shared and bragged about his team winning the State Championship, blah blah. He's one of very few white guys on the football team, and the only white kid on his basketball team. His teammates call him cracker, the White Tornado, whitey, etc- and he's always taken it in stride and laughed it off. When the Zimmerman verdict was read, his basketball coach put a picture of himself in a hoodie on facebook and posted 'White women freed a bigot from killing one of my own. This country is so backwards, whitey will always have the upper hand, I wear my hoodie for Trayvon.' I felt that was inappropriate.

My kid mentioned that Zimmerman is not white and that there wasn't enough evidence to convict him, and one of the white linemen on the team agreed with him. Thank goodness they both weigh over 250 and they are big tall kids, because they've been called so many names and been so chastised by their teammates, but nothing physical at all- most of the kids hide behind the facebook and twitter walls. I am not worried about anything physical but I am sure the words sting, even though my kid just sort of shrugs it off because he's used to being one of the only white guys. I read the twitter feed and the kids AND the coach are calling Barkley 'Uncle Tom' and talking about revenge for Trayvon and calling themselves #TeamBlack or #TeamObama.

If you don't think that Obama's words didn't add fuel to the racism fire in this country- you are wrong.

I continue to hope that no one gets hurt as a result of political figures /popular media figures and their unnecessary and irresponsible comments.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Holy #### holy #### holy ####!!!!!2

I just saw a suspicious looking character walking down the alley! A native guy. Big. Ponytail. Black track pants, a shirt with skulls on it, and he's got a bottle of lemonade. There have been break-ins recently around here.

I'm taking a steak knife and I'm going to follow him and ask him what he's up to.

I'm well within my rights to do this and this is a good idea.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

Please get out of my alley, you aren't the official Forest Lawn neighbourhood watch guy.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Holy #### holy #### holy ####!!!!!2

I just saw a suspicious looking character walking down the alley! A native guy. Big. Ponytail. Black track pants, a shirt with skulls on it, and he's got a bottle of lemonade. There have been break-ins recently around here.

I'm taking a steak knife and I'm going to follow him and ask him what he's up to.

I'm well within my rights to do this and this is a good idea.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

Stand Your Ground Bro, It's what you live for, don't take any crap from that punk or he'll be grounding and pounding you, MMA style. shoot first ask questions later.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by jonesy

Lame. Usually you are more clever.

Thanks! I guess.

The beginning of that story was true. I did actually see a guy walking down the alley who fit that description. He was "looking around", even.

He did not look like a local (I'm in latte-sipping country) and we don't see a lot 6'4 Native guys in track pants and Ed Hardy t-shirts. He didn't look like he was from "around here", as they say.

Now for all I know, he was going to his house in Mount Royal, or he was looking for his dad's girlfriend's place, or he was looking to rob somebody. But he was suspicious looking, any way you look at it.

I had a few choices.

Scenario A) I could have called the cops and said "a guy is walking down the alley and I don't think he's from around here" and gone through the whole ordeal of explaining that I had just seen no crime being committed. And then watched another episode of Kounting Cars.

Scenario B) I could have taken a knife (which I am licensed to own) and started following him.

The outcome for Scenario A would be that I watch the restoration of an old car on TV (which, BTW, I really like watching).

The outcome for Scenario B is a little more complicated.

I follow the guy around for a while and he decides he doesn't like being followed by a cracker (I am white) and starts kicking my ass, so I stab him in the heart, in self-defense.

OR

I follow the guy around and I start a fight with him and he starts to kick my ass and stab him in the heart, in self-defense.

Huh. After typing that all out, I realize that either way, I haven't done anything wrong at all.

So nevermind. I'm going to go find that guy! I'm on the condo board, so I'm officially sanctioned to do this.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

Stand Your Ground Bro, It's what you live for, don't take any crap from that punk or he'll be grounding and pounding you, MMA style. shoot first ask questions later.

So if he shot first how did the other guy get on top of him mma style? Wouldn't he of been dead?

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Scenario A) I could have called the cops and said "a guy is walking down the alley and I don't think he's from around here" and gone through the whole ordeal of explaining that I had just seen no crime being committed. And then watched another episode of Kounting Cars.

This is your best bet, and what almost always happens in this country.

Scenario B) I could have taken a knife (which I am licensed to own) and started following him.

The outcome for Scenario A would be that I watch the restoration of an old car on TV (which, BTW, I really like watching).

The outcome for Scenario B is a little more complicated.

It's a lot more complicated. As I understand it, while you are 'licensed' to have a knife in Canada, you are not allowed to carry it with the intent to use it as a weapon, or for defensive purposes. So you taking the knife would be illegal...which would seriously complicate...

I follow the guy around for a while and he decides he doesn't like being followed by a cracker (I am white) and starts kicking my ass, so I stab him in the heart, in self-defense.

OR

I follow the guy around and I start a fight with him and he starts to kick my ass and stab him in the heart, in self-defense.

...your self-defense case. Yes, you needed to use the weapon in self defense, but you weren't supposed/allowed to have it, so you could be in some real trouble.

Huh. After typing that all out, I realize that either way, I haven't done anything wrong at all.

So nevermind. I'm going to go find that guy! I'm on the condo board, so I'm officially sanctioned to do this.

You have, actually. That is part of the legal difference between US and Canada. If you went after him without the knife, and then got into a fight or provoked a fight and killed him in self defense while unarmed...then your scenario would 'work' for Canada.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Holy #### holy #### holy ####!!!!!2

I just saw a suspicious looking character walking down the alley! A native guy. Big. Ponytail. Black track pants, a shirt with skulls on it, and he's got a bottle of lemonade. There have been break-ins recently around here.

I'm taking a steak knife and I'm going to follow him and ask him what he's up to.

I'm well within my rights to do this and this is a good idea.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

One piece of advice, when the police say "don't go after him, let the police handle it", that is the secret 911 operator code for "continue your investigation, and if he threatens you or a scuffle ensues, just kill 'em". That's your right.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by flameswin

One piece of advice, when the police say "don't go after him, let the police handle it", that is the secret 911 operator code for "continue your investigation, and if he threatens you or a scuffle ensues, just kill 'em". That's your right.

Lord Almighty this is getting ridiculous. Honest question, but did you even read or listen to the transcripts? Because if you did, I have no idea where you are getting this "don't go after him, let the police handle it" nonsense that no one said. Please, do me a favour and read the transcripts:

http://misterbillohno.newsvine.com/_...erman-911-call

Tell you what, I'll make it even easier for you:

911 dispatcher: Are you following him?

Zimmerman: Yeah.

911 dispatcher: OK. We don’t need you to do that.

Zimmerman: OK.

Got that? The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him, Zimmerman replied yes, the dispatcher explained that that wasn't necessary. Zimmerman acknowledged this which is followed by the sound of Zimmerman's pursuit slowing down. Seconds later he states to the dispatcher "He ran." Zimmerman then tells the dispatcher his name and tries to co-ordinate a place for the police to meet him. Now how does any of that fit into the ridiculous narrative that you posted above?

You guys know why the jury found Zimmerman not guilty? Because it seems that unlike many of the posters in this thread, they actually reviewed the evidence instead of simply allowing the media to form their opinions for them.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Ark2

Lord Almighty this is getting ridiculous. Honest question, but did you even read or listen to the transcripts? Because if you did, I have no idea where you are getting this "don't go after him, let the police handle it" nonsense that no one said. Please, do me a favour and read the transcripts:

http://misterbillohno.newsvine.com/_...erman-911-call

Tell you what, I'll make it even easier for you:



Got that? The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him, Zimmerman replied yes, the dispatcher explained that that wasn't necessary. Zimmerman acknowledged this which is followed by the sound of Zimmerman's pursuit slowing down. Seconds later he states to the dispatcher "He ran." Zimmerman then tells the dispatcher his name and tries to co-ordinate a place for the police to meet him. Now how does any of that fit into the ridiculous narrative that you posted above?

You guys know why the jury found Zimmerman not guilty? Because it seems that unlike many of the posters in this thread, they actually reviewed the evidence instead of simply allowing the media to form their opinions for them.

Most people who have decided to kill someone, generally call the cops prior - you dig?

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

Honestly, I am glad for his daughters and their friends.

But I want do want to make one comment here on things getting better, something that people don't hear about much.

I have a bi-racial family, my oldest step son (my kids' half brother) is Korean, and I've had some iisues over the years with people asking me what colour he is and what colour my husband is, but nothing I couldn't shrug off as ignorance. Most people think ask me if he's Mexican or Chinese. Some kids used to tease him in school but he has such a great sense of humour he rolled with it and didn't make it an issue. They called him 'Chang' and or 'Beaner' but he never once got upset about it. I never really gave it too much thought.

Now, my middle son is white. I've talked about him being an athlete on these boards and shared and bragged about his team winning the State Championship, blah blah. He's one of very few white guys on the football team, and the only white kid on his basketball team. His teammates call him cracker, the White Tornado, whitey, etc- and he's always taken it in stride and laughed it off. When the Zimmerman verdict was read, his basketball coach put a picture of himself in a hoodie on facebook and posted 'White women freed a bigot from killing one of my own. This country is so backwards, whitey will always have the upper hand, I wear my hoodie for Trayvon.' I felt that was inappropriate.

My kid mentioned that Zimmerman is not white and that there wasn't enough evidence to convict him, and one of the white linemen on the team agreed with him. Thank goodness they both weigh over 250 and they are big tall kids, because they've been called so many names and been so chastised by their teammates, but nothing physical at all- most of the kids hide behind the facebook and twitter walls. I am not worried about anything physical but I am sure the words sting, even though my kid just sort of shrugs it off because he's used to being one of the only white guys. I read the twitter feed and the kids AND the coach are calling Barkley 'Uncle Tom' and talking about revenge for Trayvon and calling themselves #TeamBlack or #TeamObama.

If you don't think that Obama's words didn't add fuel to the racism fire in this country- you are wrong.

I continue to hope that no one gets hurt as a result of political figures /popular media figures and their unnecessary and irresponsible comments.

I don't see how anything that Obama said would incite the reaction that your kid's coach had or his teammates. Unfortunately, Fox News and their ilk grab snippets of the speech and say that Obama is dividing our society. Maybe he should watched his words, knowing that Fox News would do what they always do, but I think he shouldn't have to worry about that.

Do I think that Zimmerman should have been found guilty based on Florida's laws? Probably not (although I think the prosecution did a terrible job). Do I think the Zimmerman violated Martin's civil rights? I think a good case could be made based mainly around racial profiling although I am not sure what the law says in regard to a regular citizen and racial profiling. Does anyone here?

The one thing I am worried most about being a father in one month is how am I going to deal with this stuff when my child faces it (my wife is black). I can do all the studying and reading about this possible, but my biggest fear is that I can't relate to some of the obstacles she is going to face and I will be powerless to remove them.

I see racism everyday. People who think they can say things around me because I am "one of them", People reacting to my wife and I being together, people not getting promotions that deserve them, kids teasing other kids because of their race (something they are taught), the list goes on... I think this is a pretty good article on the view of black people today in the US:

http://www.ebony.com/news-views/dear...#axzz2ZdNpS9Tb

The stuff on this list is not made up. I see it all of the time.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

I looked into this, and the only source I could find (everything tracked back to a single article) was an article on "Black America Web" by an alleged family member. Doesn't seem like the best of sources seeing as it started originating about 4-5 days ago. We'll see what comes of it. If it's true, yeah, Zimmerman's assassinated his own character.

Doesn't change my opinion about the verdict on the Martin/Zimmerman case, though.

Actually first time it was brought was about a year ago. Also, this family member (who the defense team is who identified who it was, she was anonymous previously to that) called the Sanford PD and told them that good ole George and his mother were very racist towards black people, pretty quickly after the event occurred.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...relevant-past/