Hockey Question: Breakaway vs. Penalty Shot

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Scorponok

The other advantage is the player being tripped might get hurt and be unable to continue playing, therefore also giving your team a numbers advantage for the rest of the game.

Originally Posted by Scorponok

Look, I'm not trying to injure people. I'm just trying to prevent a scoring chance. And it's not like I don't feel bad about people getting hurt.

Look, I'm not trying to hurt people, it's just an added benefit of playing like a ######.

[Regorium]

I think the ethics of this is irrelevant.

Anyways I generally believe that a breakaway is more valuable than a penalty shot. I've seen Iginla score on numerous breakaways, normally on ridiculously quick releases through the five-hole. Yet his shootout struggles are well documented.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by Scorponok

I got into a semi-heated discussion with one of my buddies recently regarding breakaways vs. penalty shots. I play defense in ball hockey, and during a competitive game, if a player dangles and beats me, I will purposely take out his legs from under him every single time.

The reasons for this are plentiful, and I believe it's the right hockey play. (Of course, not getting beat like a rented mule is first priority, but if it happens, whatyagonnado?)

When a player goes in on a breakaway, a lot can happen. He can score, he can miss the net, the goalie can make a save, the goalie can make a save and the rebound comes to the player again and he scores, the rebound can go to his teammate and the teammate can score, and a whole other host of outcomes, with the common variable that your goalie is usually down and out, and there is a prime scoring chance with the ball lying loose. A penalty shot, on the other hand, negates these other outcomes, and play is whistled dead as soon as the goalie touches the ball.

It seems that it's the correct play both in ball and ice hockey, and I was wondering, are there stats that give an account of breakaway vs. penalty shot goals? In shootouts, the ratio of saves to scoring is around, I believe, 60:40. (60 saves to 40 goals for every 100 attempts) I'm not sure shootouts should be taken into account here as it's not the same thing as a penalty shot within a game, but even if we did take that statistic, how does it stack up against goals scored on breakaways?

I'm guessing breakaway goals might be a little lower due to sometimes them counting partial breakaways in the statistics, and sometimes defensemen make a sliding poke check or taking the guy down and getting the penalty but not getting a penalty shot getting called against them. They probably also don't count rebounds, scrambles, and jam-it-in goals that happen in the ensuing mayhem of the breakaway as a breakaway goal.

For myself, I drag down the player because I feel it's advantageous to do so. That even if they get a penalty shot, it's a lower percentage that they score compared to a breakaway. There's also the possibility that the referee won't call a penalty shot, but rather just a regular tripping call, in which case, even the best power plays in the NHL hover around the 25% to 30% mark. The other advantage is the player being tripped might get hurt and be unable to continue playing, therefore also giving your team a numbers advantage for the rest of the game. (Also a possibility that the opposing player slides into your goalie and one or both are injured, but this is more likely in ice hockey) Of course, I'll only do this during league play, but I find after awhile, players won't even try to beat you because they know on the off chance they do, you are going to bring them down.

[DatSOOKin]

This thread makes me laugh because Scorponok is probably one of the nicest people you can meet yet hes getting piled on like crazy.
I play against him most weeks in ball hockey and unlike a lot of people, he actually controls his stick (not smashing peoples shins/knees/Achilles trying to steal the ball). Trips may happen, but I haven't seen the type of trip from him that is even close to malicious, its not like a lumberjack swing or anything like you guys are making it out to be. I think I've been tripped once by him and it was nothing.
Put it this way, all of you firing the attacks - have any of you ever intentionally taken a penalty in any sport? It's the same situation.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by DatSOOKin

i'm on to you now, wayne!

But pertaining to the discussion, the penalty shot typically allows for more time and space for the shooter to make a move then he would have otherwise on a breakaway - so I would give the advantage to the penalty shot (for shooters).

Originally Posted by Rifleman

Depends what league you are playing in. If your in a league where people wear knee and shin pads and won't get injured easily from a trip then its a more acceptable play.

Originally Posted by Scorponok

This is true, the player does get more space and time on a PS. However, there are more rules during a breakaway. Player can't stop, puck has to always be in a forward motion, play gets whistled dead when the goalie touches the puck, and it seems in ice hockey, they are now adding even MORE rules as to what players can and can't do on a PS, example, the spinoramas. All these can be done during a breakaway. I'm prepared to be convinced if the right play is letting the player have the breakaway but right now I prefer the predictability of the PS vs the uncertainty of the breakaway.

That's why I'm also looking for stats for breakaway vs. penalty shots.

Originally Posted by albertGQ

I've played ball hockey with Scorponok a handful of times in a pick up atmosphere. I don't know what he's like in a competitive game but for the times I've played with and against him, he's been a total class act. Very clean player.

Originally Posted by DatSOOKin

This thread makes me laugh because Scorponok is probably one of the nicest people you can meet yet hes getting piled on like crazy.
I play against him most weeks in ball hockey and unlike a lot of people, he actually controls his stick (not smashing peoples shins/knees/Achilles trying to steal the ball). Trips may happen, but I haven't seen the type of trip from him that is even close to malicious, its not like a lumberjack swing or anything like you guys are making it out to be. I think I've been tripped once by him and it was nothing.
Put it this way, all of you firing the attacks - have any of you ever intentionally taken a penalty in any sport? It's the same situation.

So just how many accounts do you have?

[boggledepot]

I suppose the "do whatever it takes to win" mentality is something which has to be practiced @ all levels of competition.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by DatSOOKin

Put it this way, all of you firing the attacks - have any of you ever intentionally taken a penalty in any sport? It's the same situation.

He'd have been fine if he hadn't said, "The other advantage is the player being tripped might get hurt and be unable to continue playing, therefore also giving your team a numbers advantage for the rest of the game." I've intentionally taken penalties to stop breakaways, but I've never hoped that I'd hurt the guy and that he wouldn't be able to continue playing.

[DatSOOKin]

Originally Posted by gargamel

He'd have been fine if he hadn't said, "The other advantage is the player being tripped might get hurt and be unable to continue playing, therefore also giving your team a numbers advantage for the rest of the game." I've intentionally taken penalties to stop breakaways, but I've never hoped that I'd hurt the guy and that he wouldn't be able to continue playing.

I'm pretty sure Scorp said that just as a minor advantage for his argument which this thread is actually about (breakaway vs p.s.), I can't see him as the type of person that hopes for others to be injured.

[albertGQ]

I consider myself a clean player and I can even admit Skorponik is probably a cleaner player than me

[troutman]

Originally Posted by DatSOOKin

Put it this way, all of you firing the attacks - have any of you ever intentionally taken a penalty in any sport? It's the same situation.

There is sport, and there is recreation. You're not going to slide into second base with your spikes up at a softball game.

Don't be "ball hockey guy".

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Scorponok

I admit, it is *sort* of a dickish play. I would not do it in a pick up game or a game just for fun. But if you are playing competitively you have to take the result of the game into account as well as not letting your teammates down. No offense, but you sound like someone who's never played team sports in his/her life. Or at least competitive team sports. If you did, you'd understand where I'm coming from.

Just because he doesn't agree with taking a persons legs out doesn't mean he has not played team sports. So if a person a bowling team doesn't trip you they are not being competitive? Ron Hextall was famous for whacking people with his stick if they hung around his crease, but it's not preferable and not everyone does it.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by DatSOOKin

This thread makes me laugh because Scorponok is probably one of the nicest people you can meet yet hes getting piled on like crazy.
I play against him most weeks in ball hockey and unlike a lot of people, he actually controls his stick (not smashing peoples shins/knees/Achilles trying to steal the ball). Trips may happen, but I haven't seen the type of trip from him that is even close to malicious, its not like a lumberjack swing or anything like you guys are making it out to be. I think I've been tripped once by him and it was nothing.
Put it this way, all of you firing the attacks - have any of you ever intentionally taken a penalty in any sport? It's the same situation.

You should know cp's is actually a hornets nest and you have to come prepared!

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by DatSOOKin

This thread makes me laugh because Scorponok is probably one of the nicest people you can meet yet hes getting piled on like crazy.
I play against him most weeks in ball hockey and unlike a lot of people, he actually controls his stick (not smashing peoples shins/knees/Achilles trying to steal the ball). Trips may happen, but I haven't seen the type of trip from him that is even close to malicious, its not like a lumberjack swing or anything like you guys are making it out to be. I think I've been tripped once by him and it was nothing.
Put it this way, all of you firing the attacks - have any of you ever intentionally taken a penalty in any sport? It's the same situation.

They way he described it, the trips don't 'just happen' with him, he just apparently seems very good at hiding their nature and intent. He said he does it whenever he can, and that hey, they player might not even come back. He knowingly, openly said this. Very directly. Whether he is exactly like this in the game doesn't matter for the reactions. He's getting piled on because what he said he did is dangerous, immature, unnecessary, and extremely dickish. How would you expect them to react?

As for how often it really does happen, people don't usually just make themselves look worse than they are just to ask a question, or make a point. Usually people try to make themselves look BETTER than they are. So if a person is volunteering such information, it's usually because they don't think it's a problem.

Lastly, there's a very real possibility he's been caught with multiple accounts, which is both lame and hilarious.

At the end of the day, I do believe you that he is an amazing person. But a person can still be a great moral person and still have one or two things about them that is bad. So I guess it all goes with a grain of salt. I think the reason most people here took it so rough is because it is dangerous, for little to no reason. Could end up with more than bruises and bumps, could sprain ankles, loose teeth, etc.

And maybe it's a comment on our larger feelings on hockey in general. That often, violence is accepted, even in fun leagues. Though it seems so out of place when discussed openly. I'm sure there are a lot of people who do the same or worse in low level and fun leagues. But it doesn't make it right.

Lastly, the one time this happened to me, and it was in a league that was even less serious than this, it just elevated things. After the second time, when I was sure this is what this guy was doing, I gave him a couple two handed chops to the ankles. He did it again and I cross checked him at the base of the neck next time he was in front of my net. He did it again and we fought. I'm not a tough guy and the fight was most definitely a draw, but when you do this to people, you're just inviting violence back. If he continues to do this, he should expect to get popped in the mouth one day. And it wouldn't be unfair or uncalled for.

[tempz]

Originally Posted by Scorponok

I got into a semi-heated discussion with one of my buddies recently regarding breakaways vs. penalty shots. I play defense in ball hockey, and during a competitive game, if a player dangles and beats me, I will purposely take out his legs from under him every single time.

The reasons for this are plentiful, and I believe it's the right hockey play. (Of course, not getting beat like a rented mule is first priority, but if it happens, whatyagonnado?)

When a player goes in on a breakaway, a lot can happen. He can score, he can miss the net, the goalie can make a save, the goalie can make a save and the rebound comes to the player again and he scores, the rebound can go to his teammate and the teammate can score, and a whole other host of outcomes, with the common variable that your goalie is usually down and out, and there is a prime scoring chance with the ball lying loose. A penalty shot, on the other hand, negates these other outcomes, and play is whistled dead as soon as the goalie touches the ball.

It seems that it's the correct play both in ball and ice hockey, and I was wondering, are there stats that give an account of breakaway vs. penalty shot goals? In shootouts, the ratio of saves to scoring is around, I believe, 60:40. (60 saves to 40 goals for every 100 attempts) I'm not sure shootouts should be taken into account here as it's not the same thing as a penalty shot within a game, but even if we did take that statistic, how does it stack up against goals scored on breakaways?

I'm guessing breakaway goals might be a little lower due to sometimes them counting partial breakaways in the statistics, and sometimes defensemen make a sliding poke check or taking the guy down and getting the penalty but not getting a penalty shot getting called against them. They probably also don't count rebounds, scrambles, and jam-it-in goals that happen in the ensuing mayhem of the breakaway as a breakaway goal.

For myself, I drag down the player because I feel it's advantageous to do so. That even if they get a penalty shot, it's a lower percentage that they score compared to a breakaway. There's also the possibility that the referee won't call a penalty shot, but rather just a regular tripping call, in which case, even the best power plays in the NHL hover around the 25% to 30% mark. The other advantage is the player being tripped might get hurt and be unable to continue playing, therefore also giving your team a numbers advantage for the rest of the game. (Also a possibility that the opposing player slides into your goalie and one or both are injured, but this is more likely in ice hockey) Of course, I'll only do this during league play, but I find after awhile, players won't even try to beat you because they know on the off chance they do, you are going to bring them down.

I think the goal should always be to try and disrupt the player enough that he misses his shot. If you can do this without giving up a penalty shot that is for the best. If you end up going too far and the ref considers it a penalty shot so be it. Hauling them down on purpose is kind of silly.

Oh and its ####ing hilarious how self righteous this thread made everyone.

[t0rrent98]

I play with Scorponok at least twice a week in our Co-Ed Ball Hockey games and I've never seen him intentionally try and hurt someone after getting beat for a breakaway. He's a pretty skilled guy and he knows what it takes to prevent such things from occuring.

He also uses a stick that is twice the height that he is and still manages to dangle around people, so I can see why the tripping usually occurs. As for the Leagues he's played in and from what he's told me, he's never tried to hurt anybody on purpose.

Also, I'd prefer the breakaway over the P.S only because during a breakaway you usually don't have enough time to do what you want to do.

[calumniate]

Regardless, he must be stoned!

[Scorponok]

Originally Posted by DatSOOKin

This thread makes me laugh because Scorponok is probably one of the nicest people you can meet yet hes getting piled on like crazy.
I play against him most weeks in ball hockey and unlike a lot of people, he actually controls his stick (not smashing peoples shins/knees/Achilles trying to steal the ball). Trips may happen, but I haven't seen the type of trip from him that is even close to malicious, its not like a lumberjack swing or anything like you guys are making it out to be. I think I've been tripped once by him and it was nothing.
Put it this way, all of you firing the attacks - have any of you ever intentionally taken a penalty in any sport? It's the same situation.

I kinda have to laugh at all the crying ladies who are trying to make me out to be ball hockey playing Satan in this thread. I hope to see more tears. I do get a kick out of it.

I think the goal should always be to try and disrupt the player enough that he misses his shot. If you can do this without giving up a penalty shot that is for the best. If you end up going too far and the ref considers it a penalty shot so be it. Hauling them down on purpose is kind of silly.

Oh and its ####ing hilarious how self righteous this thread made everyone.

The blatant trip is actually the last resort for me, as there are a lot of other ways you can neutralize a guy trying to get by you. Getting your stick in the way of his, getting between the ball and him to slow him down, and even hooking him are much less obvious ways to make sure he doesn't get by you. The trip will almost always draw a penalty or penalty shot, hence the question, penalty shot vs. breakaway.

Besides Rifleman, my other accounts are Datsookin, AlbertGQ, Bertuzzied, CaptainCrunch, and Bingo.

Hehe.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Scorponok

I kinda have to laugh at all the crying ladies who are trying to make me out to be ball hockey playing Satan in this thread. I hope to see more tears. I do get a kick out of it.

The blatant trip is actually the last resort for me, as there are a lot of other ways you can neutralize a guy trying to get by you. Getting your stick in the way of his, getting between the ball and him to slow him down, and even hooking him are much less obvious ways to make sure he doesn't get by you. The trip will almost always draw a penalty or penalty shot, hence the question, penalty shot vs. breakaway.

Besides Rifleman, my other accounts are Datsookin, AlbertGQ, Bertuzzied, CaptainCrunch, and Bingo.

Hehe.

Wow you mean we actually have to take this out on Bingo. Bingo how dare you trip people in ball hockey!

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by Scorponok

I kinda have to laugh at all the crying ladies who are trying to make me out to be ball hockey playing Satan in this thread. I hope to see more tears. I do get a kick out of it.

The blatant trip is actually the last resort for me, as there are a lot of other ways you can neutralize a guy trying to get by you. Getting your stick in the way of his, getting between the ball and him to slow him down, and even hooking him are much less obvious ways to make sure he doesn't get by you. The trip will almost always draw a penalty or penalty shot, hence the question, penalty shot vs. breakaway.

Besides Rifleman, my other accounts are Datsookin, AlbertGQ, Bertuzzied, CaptainCrunch, and Bingo.

Hehe.

All in all its a stupid and cheap tactic. If the player you're trying to trip gets by you but you still managed to penalize yourself by obstructing the player, you've just given them a 2 for 1. Either they're going to score on the partial breakaway, and if they miss, they then get a penalty shot. Just man up and play the game with some integrity. Tell me the last time you saw an NHL penalty shot where it was blatantly obvious that the defensive player was making no attempt to get back on D or swipe at the puck?

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Scorponok

I kinda have to laugh at all the crying ladies who are trying to make me out to be ball hockey playing Satan in this thread. I hope to see more tears. I do get a kick out of it.


Hehe.

Crying might be a strong word, I think its more disbelief that someone would come on a public forum and openly admit they see a slight chance of injuring someone as an advantage in their ball hockey league.

Do you have scouts watching so you are worried about your +-/?

I am just confused, I don't get it.