Hockey Question: Breakaway vs. Penalty Shot

[Scorponok]

I got into a semi-heated discussion with one of my buddies recently regarding breakaways vs. penalty shots. I play defense in ball hockey, and during a competitive game, if a player dangles and beats me, I will purposely take out his legs from under him every single time.

The reasons for this are plentiful, and I believe it's the right hockey play. (Of course, not getting beat like a rented mule is first priority, but if it happens, whatyagonnado?)

When a player goes in on a breakaway, a lot can happen. He can score, he can miss the net, the goalie can make a save, the goalie can make a save and the rebound comes to the player again and he scores, the rebound can go to his teammate and the teammate can score, and a whole other host of outcomes, with the common variable that your goalie is usually down and out, and there is a prime scoring chance with the ball lying loose. A penalty shot, on the other hand, negates these other outcomes, and play is whistled dead as soon as the goalie touches the ball.

It seems that it's the correct play both in ball and ice hockey, and I was wondering, are there stats that give an account of breakaway vs. penalty shot goals? In shootouts, the ratio of saves to scoring is around, I believe, 60:40. (60 saves to 40 goals for every 100 attempts) I'm not sure shootouts should be taken into account here as it's not the same thing as a penalty shot within a game, but even if we did take that statistic, how does it stack up against goals scored on breakaways?

I'm guessing breakaway goals might be a little lower due to sometimes them counting partial breakaways in the statistics, and sometimes defensemen make a sliding poke check or taking the guy down and getting the penalty but not getting a penalty shot getting called against them. They probably also don't count rebounds, scrambles, and jam-it-in goals that happen in the ensuing mayhem of the breakaway as a breakaway goal.

For myself, I drag down the player because I feel it's advantageous to do so. That even if they get a penalty shot, it's a lower percentage that they score compared to a breakaway. There's also the possibility that the referee won't call a penalty shot, but rather just a regular tripping call, in which case, even the best power plays in the NHL hover around the 25% to 30% mark. The other advantage is the player being tripped might get hurt and be unable to continue playing, therefore also giving your team a numbers advantage for the rest of the game. (Also a possibility that the opposing player slides into your goalie and one or both are injured, but this is more likely in ice hockey) Of course, I'll only do this during league play, but I find after awhile, players won't even try to beat you because they know on the off chance they do, you are going to bring them down.

[nik-]

You sound like a jerk ... it's ball hockey dude. Try not to low-bridge people

[Scorponok]

Originally Posted by nik-

You sound like a dick ... it's ball hockey dude. Try not to low-bridge people

I admit, it is *sort* of a dickish play. I would not do it in a pick up game or a game just for fun. But if you are playing competitively you have to take the result of the game into account as well as not letting your teammates down. No offense, but you sound like someone who's never played team sports in his/her life. Or at least competitive team sports. If you did, you'd understand where I'm coming from.

[Pizza]

Originally Posted by nik-

You sound like a jerk ... it's ball hockey dude. Try not to low-bridge people

I say he hasnt gone far enough!

Javelin the stick at his feet! you'd get at least a laugh from everyone if he doesnt trip up.

If he does trip up, you save the breakaway and get to laugh harder!

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Scorponok

I admit, it is *sort* of a dickish play. I would not do it in a pick up game or a game just for fun. But if you are playing competitively you have to take the result of the game into account as well as not letting your teammates down. No offense, but you sound like someone who's never played team sports in his/her life. Or at least competitive team sports. If you did, you'd understand where I'm coming from.

Competitive ball hockey is still ball hockey, some dudes who work in an office getting some recreation. I'm sure everyone would appreciate not getting a busted leg.

[DatSOOKin]

Originally Posted by scorponok

if a player dangles and beats me, i will purposely take out his legs from under him every single time.

i'm on to you now, wayne!

But pertaining to the discussion, the penalty shot typically allows for more time and space for the shooter to make a move then he would have otherwise on a breakaway - so I would give the advantage to the penalty shot (for shooters).

[byronkentgraham]

Trying to injure people is cool. Why not just aim for the throat?

[Rifleman]

Depends what league you are playing in. If your in a league where people wear knee and shin pads and won't get injured easily from a trip then its a more acceptable play.

[Pizza]

Originally Posted by Rifleman

nvm,

WHOA

Rifleman = Scorponok?

[Scorponok]

Look, I'm not trying to injure people. I'm just trying to prevent a scoring chance. And it's not like I don't feel bad about people getting hurt.

Personally, I consider it an investment. People who know they are going to be stopped even if they beat you will just not attempt it in the future.

Now can we please make this less about me tripping people and more about breakaways vs. penalty shots?

What do you think Flames defensemen should do?

[Pizza]

Originally Posted by Scorponok

Look, I'm not trying to injure people. I'm just trying to prevent a scoring chance. And it's not like I don't feel bad about people getting hurt.

Personally, I consider it an investment. People who know they are going to be stopped even if they beat you will just not attempt it in the future.

Now can we please make this less about me tripping people and more about breakaways vs. penalty shots?

What do you think Flames defensemen should do?

I dont think Flames defensemen would set up multiple CP accounts to agree with your arguments on a messageboard

[Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Pizza

I dont think Flames defensemen would set up multiple CP accounts to agree with your arguments on a messageboard

What the hell are you talking about?

[STeeLy]

The complete flip side with regards to breakaways is that you forgot about your team. Yes, all of the above you mentioned could happen, what could also happen is that the opposing team could get a breakaway, and you and the rest of the team gets back in time to prevent any scoring by clearing the rebound/loose puck.

What I think the Flames D should do? They should trust the rest of the team to come back and help.

Chances are, if they were going to score on the breakaway, they're going to score on the penalty shot. You give the shooter a much better chance to score on the penalty shot than on the breakaway. Also, if the breakaway fails, you have a chance to quickly go back the other way and attack with one less defender, there's definitely no chance of that on a penalty shot.

[Scorponok]

Hehe, and lest this thread devolve into what a nasty player I am, you guys can ask Dasookin, Pext, and several others who play hockey with me on a weekly basis. I'm the picture class and what other players should try to emulate.

[Pizza]

Originally Posted by Rifleman

What the hell are you talking about?

Just drop it Scorponok, there's nothing more lame than having another dummy account to agree with your own thread.

the mods arent stupid, they can at least verify your login from the same IP

[Scorponok]

Originally Posted by STeeLy

The complete flip side with regards to breakaways is that you forgot about your team. Yes, all of the above you mentioned could happen, what could also happen is that the opposing team could get a breakaway, and you and the rest of the team gets back in time to prevent any scoring by clearing the rebound/loose puck.

What I think the Flames D should do? They should trust the rest of the team to come back and help.

Chances are, if they were going to score on the breakaway, they're going to score on the penalty shot. You give the shooter a much better chance to score on the penalty shot than on the breakaway. Also, if the breakaway fails, you have a chance to quickly go back the other way and attack with one less defender, there's definitely no chance of that on a penalty shot.

That's sort of what I was thinking as well. There is a chance my team can get the puck/ball after the failed breakaway and rush the other way. However, at best, that's a 5 vs. 4 rush, and the chances of scoring in that case aren't that high. Besides, I'm not even sure that should even be considered in this scenario, as this is about stats on breakaways vs stats on penalty shots. Does anyone know where some solid numbers might be found?

[Scorponok]

Originally Posted by Pizza

Just drop it Scorponok, there's nothing more lame than having another dummy account to agree with your own thread.

the mods arent stupid, they can at least verify your login from the same IP

Are you on drugs?

[STeeLy]

Also, just to add a bit more. If a player is going in on a break, chances are, they're moving pretty fast, and are unlikely to be able to slow down/stop to get the rebound, thereby giving the defenders time to get to the rebound before that player does (especially if your goalie is good and angles the shot where you have a higher chance of getting to it.)

If I had to pick between giving up a breakaway, or giving up a penalty shot, I'd give up that breakaway 10 times out of 10.

[Scorponok]

Originally Posted by DatSOOKin

i'm on to you now, wayne!

But pertaining to the discussion, the penalty shot typically allows for more time and space for the shooter to make a move then he would have otherwise on a breakaway - so I would give the advantage to the penalty shot (for shooters).

This is true, the player does get more space and time on a PS. However, there are more rules during a breakaway. Player can't stop, puck has to always be in a forward motion, play gets whistled dead when the goalie touches the puck, and it seems in ice hockey, they are now adding even MORE rules as to what players can and can't do on a PS, example, the spinoramas. All these can be done during a breakaway. I'm prepared to be convinced if the right play is letting the player have the breakaway but right now I prefer the predictability of the PS vs the uncertainty of the breakaway.

That's why I'm also looking for stats for breakaway vs. penalty shots.

[vilzeh]

That's stupid.

No I won't elaborate.