2013 Hall of Fame class

[dammage79]

And still no Pat Burns....going to hear a BUNCH of that in the next few hours/days.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by dammage79

And still no Pat Burns....going to hear a BUNCH of that in the next few hours/days.

I personally have no idea, but would PB be near the top of people's lists if he was a healthy 62 year old guy?

Never head of the female...all time point leading defensemen...was she a female Orr or Coffey though?

[Resolute 14]

Heaney surprises me mostly because there hasn't been much sabre rattling the last couple years about adding more female players. The Hall should be properly honouring the greats from the women's game, of course, but I am quite surprised they did it this year without being pressured into it. With that in mind, at some point, the selection committee should get around to inducting Fran Rider. Preferably before she dies.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Speaking of guys going in in a few years, there will be some room for the Hall to catch up in the next few years.

2014: Peter Forsberg and Mike Modano are the only two locks
2015: Lidstrom
2016: Can't think of any first balloters who have retired this summer off hand.

*cough*Kiprusoff!

Are Jagr and Selanne retiring this summer?

[trackercowe]

They should put the Women players in a different part of the Hall of Fame. Not to sound totally sexist, but really how many truly competitive games do women play over their careers? Pretty much only when they play the US, which amounts to only a couple games a syeareason. And yes I realize they have their own leagues and what not, but does anyone pay attention to them? Might as well start electing bantam hockey greats, since they are better players than most Female hockey "stars".

Sorry but I just don't think they belong in the same place as the Men. Somewhat misogynistic I know, but I don't care for women hockey in the slightest, and it just irks me that they are in the Hall of Fame, when some great male hockey players are not (and probably never will be).

[$ven27]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

*cough*Kiprusoff!

Are Jagr and Selanne retiring this summer?

Very little chance Kipper makes it in.

[vilzeh]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

*cough*Kiprusoff!

Are Jagr and Selanne retiring this summer?

Rumor says it Jagr is negotiating a contract as we speak, and Selanne will decide within few weeks, if not before.

So my guess is: No, they won't retire, because of Olympics.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

They should put the Women players in a different part of the Hall of Fame. Not to sound totally sexist, but really how many truly competitive games do women play over their careers? Pretty much only when they play the US, which amounts to only a couple games a syeareason. And yes I realize they have their own leagues and what not, but does anyone pay attention to them? Might as well start electing bantam hockey greats, since they are better players than most Female hockey "stars".

Sorry but I just don't think they belong in the same place as the Men. Somewhat misogynistic I know, but I don't care for women hockey in the slightest, and it just irks me that they are in the Hall of Fame, when some great male hockey players are not (and probably never will be).

I think they should have a spot in the Hall of Fame amongst everyone else but it seems unfair that a female player takes up one of the 4 quota spots.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

Not to sound totally sexist, but...

But you totally did.

The thing is, the three women now in the Hall paved the way for the growth and acceptance of women's hockey. Truthfully, they've done more for the sport than 90% of the men in the Hall.

[Flashpoint]

I'll say the same thing I say every year about this time.

They should rename it the NHL Hall of Fame.

Because Sergei Makarov in his prime was a better hockey player than anyone listed in this thread with the exception of Gretzky or Lemieux.

And somehow he isn't in it.

[PlayfulGenius]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

This brings back the old debate of most valuable to team vs. most valuable (see Sidney Crosby 2013).

For the record, I would build my team around Sundin before Iginla or St Louis, but I still think both of the wingers had more impressive careers.


Late 90's/early 2000s - top 10 player = No, Top 10 Forward = maybe, Top 10 Centre = Definitely

Can you rank him ahead of any of these guys?

Jagr
Sakic
Forsberg
Bure
Hasek
Roy
Brodeur
Lidstrom
Macinnis/Bourque late 90
Pronger/Niedermayer early 00


I think he slots into the top 15-20 among (in a rough order)

Lindros & Lemieux (definitely better when healthy)
Yzerman
Selanne
Recchi
Kariya
Shanahan

Sundin

Modano
Yashin - LOL, but not that different in this period
Fedorov
Tkachuk
Roenick

Late 90's - probably ahead of Sundin...

Fleury
Gretzky (still finished 4th in scoring 97-98)

Early 00 - probably ahead of Sundin...

Iginla
Bertuzzi
Naslund


IMO he has the edge on these guys in this period, but they are in the conversation too:

Hull
Francis
Oates
Mogilny
Weight
Nieuwendyk
Brind'Amour
Gilmour
Robitaille
Leclair
etc.

I think you make great points here...I feel you under value Francis and Fedorov just a tad.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

They should put the Women players in a different part of the Hall of Fame. Not to sound totally sexist, but really how many truly competitive games do women play over their careers? Pretty much only when they play the US, which amounts to only a couple games a syeareason. And yes I realize they have their own leagues and what not, but does anyone pay attention to them? Might as well start electing bantam hockey greats, since they are better players than most Female hockey "stars".

Sorry but I just don't think they belong in the same place as the Men. Somewhat misogynistic I know, but I don't care for women hockey in the slightest, and it just irks me that they are in the Hall of Fame, when some great male hockey players are not (and probably never will be).

Ignoring the sexism of your post you cant seriously be arguing that GREAT male hockey players are missing from the hall. The hall is watered down with a bunch of boarderline entrys as it is.

One change I would mak ewould be to allow the addition of 1 women every fourth year rather then evaluating against NHL players. I would do the same for pre expanion players where we could add one every four years. Then I would cut the men down to two per year and the we could discuss truly great players in the hall rather than good, long careers.

[timbit]

Excellent selections. Well deserved.

[hah]

Solid choices this year but no Paul Henderson.... Shameful. HHOF committee.

[Haplo]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

This brings back the old debate of most valuable to team vs. most valuable (see Sidney Crosby 2013).

For the record, I would build my team around Sundin before Iginla or St Louis, but I still think both of the wingers had more impressive careers.


Late 90's/early 2000s - top 10 player = No, Top 10 Forward = maybe, Top 10 Centre = Definitely

Can you rank him ahead of any of these guys?

Jagr
Sakic
Forsberg
Bure
Hasek
Roy
Brodeur
Lidstrom
Macinnis/Bourque late 90
Pronger/Niedermayer early 00


I think he slots into the top 15-20 among (in a rough order)

Lindros & Lemieux (definitely better when healthy)
Yzerman
Selanne
Recchi
Kariya
Shanahan

Sundin

Modano
Yashin - LOL, but not that different in this period
Fedorov
Tkachuk
Roenick

Late 90's - probably ahead of Sundin...

Fleury
Gretzky (still finished 4th in scoring 97-98)

Early 00 - probably ahead of Sundin...

Iginla
Bertuzzi
Naslund


IMO he has the edge on these guys in this period, but they are in the conversation too:

Hull
Francis
Oates
Mogilny
Weight
Nieuwendyk
Brind'Amour
Gilmour
Robitaille
Leclair
etc.

I'll agree with slotting in Sundin somewhere there. But as you write yourself, several of these players had their career years starting a bit later or ending a bit earlier than Sundin. So even if he's not top ten among these players I'd still put him top ten (or just below) through his prime. Just like I would with Yzerman, Selänne, Kariya and Fedorov.

But Naslund and Bertuzzi better than Sundin? Never!

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by hah

Solid choices this year but no Paul Henderson.... Shameful. HHOF committee.

Other than a few big goals in 1972 which are already recognized at the Hockey Hall of Fame, what else makes him even a remotely good selection?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

I think you make great points here...I feel you under value Francis and Fedorov just a tad.

Only because I was speaking specific to late 90's early 00's...if it was early to mid 90's those two would be in the top 10!

Originally Posted by Haplo

But Naslund and Bertuzzi better than Sundin? Never!

Only for a couple seasons before the lockout, which shouldn't necessarily warrant them ahead of Sundin...but in those years they might make the league top 10 ahead of Sundin.

That is one glowing thing I would say about Mats - he was very consistent...his lack of 'flash in pan' years just make him a little less sexy when comparing to some either guys that lit the world on fire for a perid.

[powderjunkie]

Will Cassie Campbell ever get in?

[Badger Bob]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I personally have no idea, but would PB be near the top of people's lists if he was a healthy 62 year old guy?

People are afraid of saying this, but it's true. The precedent was set when Roger Neilson was inducted. A lot of this was because the terminal illness and the fact that he'd coached in Toronto. Otherwise, his name isn't up there with Toe Blake, Punch Imlach, Scotty Bowman, Al Arbour or even Glen Sather.

Burns's accomplishments are 1 Prince of Wales championship (lost to Flames in the Finals!), one Stanley Cup, 3 Jack Adams trophies with lifetime record of 501-353.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/coaches/burnspa99c.html

He is not in the top 10 for any of the major categories of games coached, wins, losses (yep, coach several years and you're going to lose a lot games) and titles.

To benchmark:

Iron Mike had 2 Prince of Wales championships, a Clarence Campbell championship, one Stanley Cup, 1 Jack Adams trophy with a lifetime record of 672-531.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/coaches/keenami99c.html

Both men were known as abrasive, and their styles tended to soon wear thin. Burns had a better Win % during the regular season with .573 vs. .551 for Keenan. Keenan had a better Win % in the playoffs with .555 vs. .523 for Burns. Seems like a fair comparison.

So, is anybody here going to discuss a future HHOF induction for Mike Keenan?

One last thing about Pat Burns, many years ago, while Toronto radio station CHUM-FM Toronto was on my car stereo a report came on with their sports guy, Rick Hodge. He indicated that there were veteran players who were "tuning out" Burns. If you had to peg me for the names, they'd begin with Andreychuk and Gilmour. Wouldn't it stand to reason that a Hall of Fame coach would be able to get his message through to the main on-ice leaders?

[PlayfulGenius]

I think Mike Keenan gets in, yes...so will Burns.

Is there a G that has won 3 Vezina trophies that is NOT in the HOF? I suspect not, though I don't know...I can't see a coach with 3 Jack Adams trophies not getting in.