2013 Hall of Fame class

[powderjunkie]

I think it will be/should be: Niedermayer, Chelios, Shanahan and Andreychuk


Housley, Blake and Zubov should get in there eventually too

There seems to be a glut of guys like Barasso, Vernon, Cujo, and Richter (not to mention Hextall, Vanbiesbrouck and some of the old timers)...hard to justify any over them over the others. Would like to see Barasso and Vernon eventually, but I doubt it happens.

Lindros is missing from the HHOF link...

Roenick is an interesting case...on paper he isn't really worthy, but somehow I think he should be close. Same with Theo.

[Poe969]

What year does Avery qualify?

[powderjunkie]

I can't believe Sundin got in first year. To me, he's a Roenick comparable.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I can't believe Sundin got in first year. To me, he's a Roenick comparable.

Do you think Jarome Iginla should be a first year HOFer?

If the answer to that question is Yes then that means Sundin should also be a first year HOFer.

[trackercowe]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Do you think Jarome Iginla should be a first year HOFer?

If the answer to that question is Yes then that means Sundin should also be a first year HOFer.

Not necessarily. Iginla was a top 3-5 player for much of his career (maybe five seasons). Could you have ever said the same about Sundin, even being a top ten player? A very nice career, but never quite an elite player IMO.

[Drury18]

What the heck does Alex Mogilny have to do to get on this list? It continues to come as a surprise that he just doesn't make it on these lists and yet is more than worthy to go into the HHOF.

[tempz]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Do you think Jarome Iginla should be a first year HOFer?

If the answer to that question is Yes then that means Sundin should also be a first year HOFer.

Big difference in hardware. Iggy has 2 Richard trophies, 1 Art Ross, 1 Pearson.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by tempz

Big difference in hardware. Iggy has 2 Richard trophies, 1 Art Ross, 1 Pearson.

Outside of the one season when Jarome Iginla was the best player in the NHL they are quite similar.

Does that one season make a difference in the large scheme of things, I would answer no. Plus you could say that Sundin makes up for that one year by being elite for a longer period of time.

[Buff]

If it were up to me I would induct Chelios, Niedermayer and Shanahan this year.

Guys I'm on the bubble are Barrasso, Vernon and Joseph. Each on has their merits, but they are all close that if one does, then the other two should get strong consideration.

Also Lindros and Kariya. Both are in the same boat to me. If Kariya gets it, then Lindros should too. Lindros had more impact at the beginning of their careers than Kariya did.

Had Fleury managed to conquer his demons before he became such a sideshow he would be a definite hall of famer, but would he have been the player he was if he had his life under control? Too many bad incidents will prevent him from ever making it.

[Haplo]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

Not necessarily. Iginla was a top 3-5 player for much of his career (maybe five seasons). Could you have ever said the same about Sundin, even being a top ten player? A very nice career, but never quite an elite player IMO.

I'd say Sundin was a top ten player for longer than Iginla. He just never had the absolute break out year(s) where he'd be top 3 and in the running for trophies.
But I think being 7th in all time GWGs, a PPG player over his career and his great international record warranted a first year induction.

Not being able to bring Toronto a cup seems to bring him down in a lot of peoples eyes, but he didn't have much of a supporting cast for most of his years. Kinda like Iginla.

[Tinordi]

Zubov should be first ballot

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Zubov should be first ballot

Very underrated.

0.72 PPG as a d-man, was good if not great defensively, and never really had an elite defensive partner.

Two Stanley Cups, and an Olympic Gold Medal.

Didn't quite have that dominating season but was good for his whole career.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Do you think Jarome Iginla should be a first year HOFer?

If the answer to that question is Yes then that means Sundin should also be a first year HOFer.

It depends a little bit who he's up against, and also how his remaining years go...It looks like he will top 600 goals, and he actually has hardware in his trophy closet. Also a cup finals appearance...which I value a bit more than a lot of 2nd and 3rd round exits with top 5 payroll teams...I'm not certain I say first ballot for Iggy, but I think probably.

Shanahan definitely deserved to be a first ballot over Sundin.


If Iggy retires in 3ish years, he will probably be up against guys like these in his first year:

Datsyuk
Chara
St Louis
Elias

Hejduk
Doan
Luongo? (unless he plays to age 43)Smyth
Gonchar? (probably done in the next year or 2 though)
Briere
Boyle
Morrow
Gionta
etc.

Thornton, Hossa, etc. (if they retire a bit early or Iggy hangs on longer)


I would slot Datsyuk on par with Iggy (totally different cases though...I put Dats there for his highlight reels and defensive play as much as anything). Chara is a pretty unique case...he wasn't a total impact player for long enough, so I think he is in the category of Housley, Blake, Zubov.

I think Sundin is more in the category of Elias or St Louis...a step below Iggy. Iggy might be the only first ballot in his year...

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Do you think Jarome Iginla should be a first year HOFer?

If the answer to that question is Yes then that means Sundin should also be a first year HOFer.

Do you think Sundin deserved to be there before Shanahan, Andreychuk, Housley, Vernon, Barrasso, Roenick, Mogilny? I think he is somewhere in the middle of that group...

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

It depends a little bit who he's up against, and also how his remaining years go...It looks like he will top 600 goals, and he actually has hardware in his trophy closet. Also a cup finals appearance...which I value a bit more than a lot of 2nd and 3rd round exits with top 5 payroll teams...I'm not certain I say first ballot for Iggy, but I think probably.

Shanahan definitely deserved to be a first ballot over Sundin.


If Iggy retires in 3ish years, he will probably be up against guys like these in his first year:

Datsyuk
Chara
St Louis
Elias

Hejduk
Doan
Luongo? (unless he plays to age 43)Smyth
Gonchar? (probably done in the next year or 2 though)
Briere
Boyle
Morrow
Gionta
etc.

Thornton, Hossa, etc. (if they retire a bit early or Iggy hangs on longer)


I would slot Datsyuk on par with Iggy (totally different cases though...I put Dats there for his highlight reels and defensive play as much as anything). Chara is a pretty unique case...he wasn't a total impact player for long enough, so I think he is in the category of Housley, Blake, Zubov.

I think Sundin is more in the category of Elias or St Louis...a step below Iggy. Iggy might be the only first ballot in his year...

It's funny because you could use the same argument people are using to put Iggy ahead of Sundin, to put St.Louis ahead of Iggy.

Doesn't have the goals, but the ppg is similar. Then St.Louis has the Hart trophy, 2 Art Ross Trophys, Pearson, and of course the Stanley Cup Iggy doesn't have yet.

Just shows how difficult it is to rank players over history, even when they are from pretty much the same generation.

[getbak]

I just don't understand why goalies are held to a much higher standard than players at other positions.

In the last 30 years, 55 players have been inducted to the HHOF, and only 4 of them were goalies (Smith, Fuhr, Roy, and Belfour). If we used the same "he was never the best player at his position" criteria for non-goalies, any centre whose career coincided with Gretzky and Lemieux shouldn't be in the Hall either.


I also don't understand the whole "first ballot" debate. The players are retired. It's not like a guy can do something between years of retirement that somehow retroactively makes his career better. I can understand if it's a year where 5 or 6 players are eligible for the first time and only 4 can get in, but otherwise, if a guy is good enough to be in the Hall, he should be in the Hall.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Do you think Sundin deserved to be there before Shanahan, Andreychuk, Housley, Vernon, Barrasso, Roenick, Mogilny? I think he is somewhere in the middle of that group...

Hard to say on the goalie front, just too difficult to compare goalies and forwards.

Ahead of Housley, Roenick, and Mogilny for sure IMO.

Shanahan and Andreychuk is harder just due to them having 600+ goals.

But neither was as good as Sundin at their peak, and had Sundin played as long as them he also would have reached that plateau. (Nearly identical GPG for the three of them 0.4-0.43 GPG)

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by tempz

What about Tom Barrasso?

Vezina
Calder
Jennings
2 x Stanley Cups
15th in Career wins with 369

I think he deserves to be in there.

Most important is he leads all goalies in points. If Gretzky and Coffee can get into the HHOF based purely on their offensive output at their positions so should Barrasso.

[trackercowe]

Problem for Barrasso is that he had his own share of attitude problems during his career, so political reasons might keep him out. Also people will say the only reason he won anything was because of Lemieux, Jagr, Stevens, etc. Of course you could say the same thing about Fuhr, but it's hard to keep out guys who who that many Cups with the Oilers in the 80s.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Haplo

I'd say Sundin was a top ten player for longer than Iginla. He just never had the absolute break out year(s) where he'd be top 3 and in the running for trophies.
But I think being 7th in all time GWGs, a PPG player over his career and his great international record warranted a first year induction.

Not being able to bring Toronto a cup seems to bring him down in a lot of peoples eyes, but he didn't have much of a supporting cast for most of his years. Kinda like Iginla.

Sundin's top years came in the run-and-gun era, but I think you inadvertently hit on the difference between the two. Sundin was a steady, well above average forward for much of his career. Jarome Iginla was a steady, well above average forward who had several elite seasons.

Both have the gold... Sunding has three world champs and an Olympic gold. Iginla has a World Champ, two Olympic golds, World Cup, WJHC. In fact, one of the reasons why Scott Niedermayer is held out as being so great is the fact that he is the only player in history to win every major NA and world championship one can get - Memorial Cup, WJHC, Stanley Cup, Olympic Gold, WC/CC Gold, World Championship. Iginla needs only a Stanley Cup to match.

In terms of individual awards, Iginla's ability to be elite sets him apart. Sundin won the Messier and was named a second team All-Star a couple times. Iginla was all-rookie, 3x first team and 1x second team All-Star, 2x Richard, Art Ross, Lester Pearson, Messier, Clancy and was screwed out of the Hart.

Iginla > Sundin. But that is not to say that Sundin should not have been a first ballot HHOF. I do have a hard time putting him before Shanahan, however.