The biggest deal in this trade is getting out of self imposed "cap jail" with these guys.
NMC for Sarich until January, NTC for Tanguay for the length of the deal.
Both of those have now vanished.
Think O'Brien is no better than an 8th defender like Sarich was? Still a positive because Calgary couldn't send Sarich to the AHL, but they can with O'Brien.
Jones pouting and sulking, not giving his all every game? Trade him, there's not much he can do about it. Tanguay pouting and sulking, not giving his all every game? Better find out where he's willing to accept a trade to and hope that team is interested.
Can't be understated about how important it is for a team with a ton of cap space to get out from under a crippling amount of trade-impacting contract stipulations.
Next move should be dealing Giordano.
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Flash Walken For This Useful Post:
And Tanguay doesn't need to produce near his career highs in order to make his contact worth it. For $3.5 million, producing at a 40 point range would be just fine for veteran with his experience. It's Jones who has to repeat career years in order to make his contract worth it.
Jones brings a lot more to his game besides scoring. Tanguay brings nothing.
The biggest deal in this trade is getting out of self imposed "cap jail" with these guys.
NMC for Sarich until January, NTC for Tanguay for the length of the deal.
Both of those have now vanished.
Think O'Brien is no better than an 8th defender like Sarich was? Still a positive because Calgary couldn't send Sarich to the AHL, but they can with O'Brien.
Jones pouting and sulking, not giving his all every game? Trade him, there's not much he can do about it. Tanguay pouting and sulking, not giving his all every game? Better find out where he's willing to accept a trade to and hope that team is interested.
Can't be understated about how important it is for a team with a ton of cap space to get out from under a crippling amount of trade-impacting contract stipulations.
Next move should be dealing Giordano.
Sarich would have waived his NMC for any team in the NHL just for a chance at a new start.
The cap isn't a concern this year or likely for the next 3 years, so it's really not a factor for me
and while Jones doesn;t have Yelle's heart, Tanguay going forward won't have Huselius's skill
And I would still pick Yelle even if the cap hits mattered.
But my point was to illustrate that it's not as lopsided as some make it out to be
Don't get me wrong, it's a fair point. When we acquired Yelle, no one thought anything of him. He ended up having a huge impact on the Flames though and changed the culture of the team.
Unfortunately, I don't think Jones brings that intangible, and from what lot of things people are saying, O'Brien actually has the opposite effect.
For a rebuilding team, I would much rather either be acquiring assets in their prime that are flippable in the near future or throwing young players in to sink or swim. This trade didn't do either.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
What exactly are you thinking he brings? Intangibles? Hahaha
Yeah, if you go by what Colorado fans say, he drives his linemates crazy. He is good at burying gift wrapped goals, but doesn't have the creativity to return the favour and doesn't use his size.
Seeing as how we are not going anywhere anytime soon, Aliu would have been worth giving a shot over an expensive veteran.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
Yeah, if you go by what Colorado fans say, he drives his linemates crazy. He is good at burying gift wrapped goals, but doesn't have the creativity to return the favour and doesn't use his size.
Seeing as how we are not going anywhere anytime soon, Aliu would have been worth giving a shot over an expensive veteran.
Avs fans are piling on him because he's been traded. I wouldn't put too much value in that. Let's wait for the season to start and see how he does. His size and the fact that he's a natural right-handed RW give me a lot of hope that he'll turn out.
I don't care what the fans says, I care what my eyeballs says.
Jones is sometimes unnoticeable because he's just being solid. Tanguay is often unnoticeable because he's floating around disengaged from the play. No question about it, Jones is not as 'skilled' as Tanguay, one of the most 'skilled' players in the league. Skill ain't worth much without effort, though; without mental toughness.
Tanguay is the epitome of the phrase, "points aren't everything." If Jones plays similar minutes to what Tanguay did last year and is simply not a big bag of suck, the trade is worth it, regardless of any point spread between the two.
Tanguay sucked long and he sucked hard last season. I was embarrassed for him. Getting a decent effort out of the guys in our top 6 will be such a shock to the system when we actually see it this year. Jones, bringing a decent effort, is worth it just not to watch a guy skate around in little loops, turning the puck over and generally looking like hot garbage.
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Flash Walken For This Useful Post:
Don't get me wrong, it's a fair point. When we acquired Yelle, no one thought anything of him. He ended up having a huge impact on the Flames though and changed the culture of the team.
Unfortunately, I don't think Jones brings that intangible, and from what lot of things people are saying, O'Brien actually has the opposite effect.
For a rebuilding team, I would much rather either be acquiring assets in their prime that are flippable in the near future or throwing young players in to sink or swim. This trade didn't do either.
Who do you think knows O'Brien's effect on a room better. The Avs fans from some message board, or Feaster who was his GM in Tampa and Gelinas who an executive in Nashville? I know it's a toughie, but I will go with the people that actually worked in the same organizations and would know first hand.
I would have rather had assets in their prime too, or even picks, but quite frankly that was a pipe dream as they likely wouldn't have been offered for a has been and a crybaby
For all you know, Tanguay agreed to waive for 20 teams that aren't rebuilding. Pure speculation works both ways.
Calling Tanguay's contract an albatross is an exaggeration. 3.5 million for what he offers is a bargain, term left makes it 'fair'. Compare other players with his output and term in the league.
I would think that he would indeed been claimed off of waivers, or traded for 'future considerations' given his history (even with the sulking - which is why he is making 3.5 and not 5+). 23rd in the league. There are 30 teams in the league. He would have upgraded 7 teams top line as a free acquisition, at a modest 1st-line salary. Think those teams would have claimed him off waivers for free? How about the next tier on the 2nd line? Bound to be a lot of teams there that he would have improved for free. 3.5 is what many 3rd liners make. Tanguay has flaws to his game - and thus he is 3.5 and not 5. He would be claimed for free.
David Jones ranked 82nd amongst RW'ers. 3 goals in 40 games. Though I think this is really a terrible season for Jones, and will probably be an outlier for his career, 4 million is a very expensive contract. But to have term attached to him? To put it in perspective, Brian McGrattan scored the same number of goals last season as Jones did (in about half as many games), and he didn't have someone on the same calibre as Stastny setting him up. (and no, Stastny is not going to Europe. Teams will line up to acquire Stastny).
Is there a reasonable chance that Jones regains his 20+ scoring ability on the Flames playing with less talented centers? Now take into consideration what the Avs' fans are saying about him - that he doesn't play a physical game any longer because when he does, he gets injured, and that he is apparently slower due to a past injury. This will have to wait to be seen, but it seems unlikely at the least. I don't mind taking on a reclamation project - but not one that carries term. Should be a 'prove it' situation for a year.
O'Brien - where do you begin with him? Do people honestly believe he is an upgrade over Sarich? Sarich played the exact number of games as O'Brien - on a team with better defencemen. Take a look at who is ahead of O'Brien. O'Brien is NOT an enforcer (ZERO fighting majors last year - Sarich is 'more' of an enforcer since he had 1). Sarich is apparently also much more physical. Add Sarich's locker room intangibles like his leadership, experience.. add his apparent mentoring of Brodie and Gio. Besides youth (and O'Brien is not a spring chicken) how is this a 'win' for the Flames? Factor in the stigma that O'Brien seems to have from team to team (at least all the ones coming from his time with the Canucks, and most recently on the Avs), where is the upside? Because he is 29 vs Sarich's 34? That alone makes it a win? Definitely in this case, there will be better players available on the FA market who have higher upside, and who at the very least don't have any stigmas. Flames are rebuilding anyways - Sarich would have added leadership at least, even if the Flames couldn't unload him for anything.
I am not upset with what the return was for Tanguay and Sarich. I still think Tanguay could have been traded for 'future considerations' or a complete bust of a prospect playing in Europe that would never come to NA. I look at Sarich as a 'who cares if he is on the team? Adds value to a team lacking leadership now at least'. This trade is not a win in my mind because the Flames acquired a reclamation winger who is over-paid for 3 more years, and a 7th defencemen who brings with him a negative stigma by a number of teams in the past and who also carries term (another 2 years).
Seems we traded away 'negligible value' in return for 'negative value' as it stands right now. Fans here couldn't wait to get rid of Bourque for seemingly the eerily the exact same reasons they wanted Jones out. Only Jones makes 500,000 more, and isn't close to as proven as Bourque was.
Some of the guys are going over the top with how 'bad' this trade was value-wise, but I don't think it is that bad. I just wish the Flames didn't acquire anything in return.
Fans who wanted to get rid of Bourque were 100% wrong. Getting Cammalleri was a bright shiny object.... the Flames have a history (both under Sutter and Feaster) of chasing the shiny objects: Redden, Jokinen ,Bouwmeester, Brad Richards, Cammalleri, O'Rielly.
You can pull out all the individual stats that you want but the line of Gionta-Plekanec-Bourque is significantly better than the line of Gionta-Plekanec-Cammalleri. It is not even close.
A line of Baertcshi-Backlund and Jones might not be a top NHL line but it has a chance. A line of Baertshi-Backlund- Hudler is basically a disaster waiting to happen. It would be like the Hall-RHN-Eberle line In the 18 wins Hall was 2PPG and +19 in the 27 loses .5 ppg and -15. works out to great individual stats, huge contracts, lots of injuries and one of the worst losing teams in the history of hockey.
The only argument that I see that could make sense is that the 12M that the Flames are going to pay Jones might be enough to get Iginla back with Tanguay for another 3 years. We have seen that story play out for the last 3 years.
Who do you think knows O'Brien's effect on a room better. The Avs fans from some message board, or Feaster who was his GM in Tampa and Gelinas who an executive in Nashville? I know it's a toughie, but I will go with the people that actually worked in the same organizations and would know first hand.
It's not fans on a message board. There have been a few media reports about O'Brien over the years that suggest he isn't a great character to have around.
Quote:
I would have rather had assets in their prime too, or even picks, but quite frankly that was a pipe dream as they likely wouldn't have been offered for a has been and a crybaby
Like I said, in lieu of even a passably decent return, waivers was an option if Tanguay really had to go. No reason to take back Jones when we are a rebuilding team. As someone else mentioned, in the big picture of the rebuild, Jones is nothing more than an expensive place holder. Let a kid do that instead.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
Jones has size but does not use it. Over his career, he has average somewhere around 1.25 hits per game.
To put that in perspective, over his past 3 seasons, Wideman has averaged 1.20 per game. His PIM totals are very low and also do not reflect a willingness to use his body.
He has a couple decent seasons under his belt and that's it. His career best is 45 points, which doesn't exactly scream that we should be looking for more.
Fans expecting him to come in and work hard every night and forecheck are, I suspect, going to be disappointed, whether he makes 4 million or league minimum.
Avs fans may be undervaluing him based on the fact that they traded him, but Flames fans are doing the same with Tanguay.
SOB has somehow been played significantly more than Sarich over the last 6 years.
Last year was a disaster season for both Sarich and SOB.
for SOB :
2011-12 76 games 19:13 /game #4 in Colorado in TOI /game and #3 in total TOI
2010-11 80 games 17:06/game #6 in Nashville in TOI/ game and #4 in Total TOI, #5 in 12 playoff games
2009-10 65 games 17:01 / game #6 in Van in TOI /game and #5 in total TOI , #5 in the 12 playoff games.
2008-09 76 games 14:56 / game in Vancouver #6/game.... and #6 in total. all 10 playoff games #6/5
2007-08 77 games 21:17 /game #4 in TB in TOI/game, #3 in total
2006-07 playing 18 games in TB with Sarich on the team ... SOB had the same TOI as Sarich on TB..... playing 80 games between Ana and TB O'Brien had about 15 minutes/games
The Flames fans have forgotten how important and how much or a difference it makes having a 230 lb d-man taking a regular shift.
Unless somehow Breen steps up and makes a Brodie like advancement SOB will be getting #4 TOI as Flames D.
Sarich has never been a top 4 d-man in terms of Ice time on the Flames .... Outside of his first year as Flame he never has played >18 Minutes a game.
The Following User Says Thank You to ricardodw For This Useful Post:
Who do you think knows O'Brien's effect on a room better. The Avs fans from some message board, or Feaster who was his GM in Tampa and Gelinas who an executive in Nashville? I know it's a toughie, but I will go with the people that actually worked in the same organizations and would know first hand.
I would have rather had assets in their prime too, or even picks, but quite frankly that was a pipe dream as they likely wouldn't have been offered for a has been and a crybaby
Ya i think the O'Brien's effect in the locker room has been a bit overplayed. He used to party a lot in Vancouver but from all acounts has toned down. Fans might not like him but players sure seem to like him.
Good chance he started the "Vegas trip" but at the same time it sounds like a lot of the players were up for it. Other than Jiggy not liking it, sounds like most of the room joined in the planning of the "Vegas trip". Granted i dont like that it started, but i doubt you will see that again from him.
At least nobody will run the goalie with him around. Other than that he is pretty bad.
Jones has size but does not use it. Over his career, he has average somewhere around 1.25 hits per game.
To put that in perspective, over his past 3 seasons, Wideman has averaged 1.20 per game. His PIM totals are very low and also do not reflect a willingness to use his body.
He has a couple decent seasons under his belt and that's it. His career best is 45 points, which doesn't exactly scream that we should be looking for more.
Fans expecting him to come in and work hard every night and forecheck are, I suspect, going to be disappointed, whether he makes 4 million or league minimum.
Avs fans may be undervaluing him based on the fact that they traded him, but Flames fans are doing the same with Tanguay.
So I post the evidence and you say no because you just feel like it? Did you sit on the Jury for the O.J Simpson case as well? David Jones muscles players off the puck, he drives the net hard, and while he does not hit everything in sight he does throw big hits.
